A proof that consciousness is non-physical

@ijesuschrist, @eliot, The only thing that can be proven is I AM. All else is causeless speculation. . .

There is a gift in that but it’s too simple for most people to open!

@eliot, @ijesuschrist, Consciousness cannot be known in the mind. Only felt in the heart. Nobody can touch this flower, but it’s fragrance is magnificent!

@eliot, SO i think I tried to split the topic, using your last response as the first post, but I don’t know if it worked… I think its a more interesting question and a lot easier to contemplate than the first examples.

@eliot, “Every proof that has every been constructed is based on a certain set of assumptions (called axioms). These are usually so obvious and intuitive that there is actually no need to prove them at all.”

-Not all proof is constructed. Gravity is real no matter what set of assumptions you filter it through, throw something and it falls, you can’t deny it. A tree absorbs water and nutrients from the ground no matter what set of assumptions you filter it through. It keeps doing its thing whether you believe it or not. That’s because it’s hard fact, true reality, beyond bona fide.

That’s real proof. Not just a poorly rationalized, wishful conclusion based upon nothing but belief.

“I don’t see a gap in there. Assuming that everything in existence is based on physical matter and then having two physically identical entities which posses different qualities certainly sounds like a contradiction to me.”

This comes as no surprise, if you could see the gap nobody would have to tell you. It’s tricky to see the gaps in what you’ve constructed yourself, because of that part of the self that doesn’t want you to question your own beliefs.

Doesn’t matter if two things are identical, they’re still separate. Two things are two things, not one thing.
The contradiction you speak of isn’t real, it’s just based in faulty beliefs.
There could be a million explanations for what happened, how it happened, and why, and there’s not much proof supporting any of these explanations. Yet you immediately jump to one of them, without a logical conclusion leading there.

That’s like me asking you if you have a lawnmower, and you answer no, so I conclude that you’re a homo. Where’s the connection?
Sure, I could come to the conclusions by assuming that no lawnmower means no lawn, no lawn means no house, no house means no family, no family means no wife, no wife means homo. But even that chain of “logic” is full of crazy gaps and jumped conclusions.

Just like yours, but actually not as badly.

“Because the assumption is that everything, including thought and behaviour, is based on physical matter and those two entities are physically identical.”

Identical doesn’t mean united. They’re still two separate brains. Two separate brains thinking, perceiving, reacting to the world, etc. They don’t even stay identical for more than a very short moment, because the brain is always adapting.

“And what exactly is free will? We assume that our awareness springs from interactions between neurones, but we know that neurons are deterministic systems (i.e. if their current state and input remain the same, their output will also be the same). And at the same time we know that we somehow have indirect control over those neurons. Doesn’t this sound odd to you?”

Free will is just that, free will, the ability to choose. Does it need further explanation?
Whether our control over the input is direct or indirect (or both) is not proven yet, it could be direct, but let’s go with indirect.
The neurons act and react through bio-electrical impulses, and we can somehow control these, how it works hasn’t been established yet. We just know THAT it works, not how or why. A jumped conclusion isn’t gonna change that fact.

It doesn’t sound the least bit odd to me, because it’s reality. Reality isn’t odd, reality is real. Theories are what’s odd, when reality contradicts assumptions things seem odd. But that’s of the theory, not of reality. Reality isn’t the least bit odd.

As for the physical vs non-physical thing, it seems you don’t fully grasp those terms. There is nothing non-physical, nothing other-worldly, nothing supernatural. Real is real, and physical. Just because we have yet to find a way to chart and measure it, doesn’t mean it isn’t physical. It’s just like light, sound, thoughts, electricity.
Just a few centuries ago, people were still ascribing these things to otherworldly spirits or such, that it wasn’t physical, but we now know that they were wrong about that. Still, people keep claiming the same thing about other similar phenomena that they don’t understand, such as consciousness.
It’s amazing how slowly such insane habits die.

There is nothing non-physical, that doesn’t mean I’m denying the existence of things that a lot of people choose to call non-physical, only denying that stupid assumption.
And now someone will probably say “But urr there’s a lot of dimensions and we can only see four of these…”
That’s also bullshit. All the dimensions are right here, right now, and they’re all equally physical. What you’re looking at right now, what you’re hearing right now, etc. is the sum total of all of it. The so-called “spirit world” is not another world, but one of the aspects of the one reality, it’s right here right now, and it’s physical.

Ever heard of things like quantum physics, string theory, and such? They’re discovering some really strange shit that could explain all this “non-physical stuff.”
Not too long ago, people thought atoms were the smallest physical units. Then someone discovered the neutrons, protons and electrons of which the atom consists. And some time later someone discovered that these too consisted of even smaller particles. Then someone discovered that these consisted of still even smaller particles. Etc.

Everything is maso. The one fabric of reality, out of which all forms and “non-forms” are carved and moulded.

“As for the change/injury in the brain causing the change in awareness – this is perfectly fine and I’m not trying to oppose this claim. But it still doesn’t reveal a mistake in the original experiment.”

Yes it does.
If brain trauma alters the function of consciousness, that means the brain is causal to consciousness. Unless you come up with some backwards rationalization such as “but the event that led to the injury was just a parallel manifestation to what was already happening to the spirit. In the other world.”

This is a universe of cause and effect, and it is just that, the universe. It means “the one verse” simply put, all that is, AKA “the word of god.”
The maso, of which all consists.

The separation between the aspects of the world is an illusion, a figment of YOUR IMAGINATION.

@everymorningbornfromtheashes, @darryl, Likewise, I am glad to be graced with your thoughts!