I am just curious on people’s views on abortion. I personally am pro-choice. I believe it is someone’s body and there decision. Either way the U.S. should at least keep things straight, for example if a someone kills a pregnant women they get charged with two accounts of murder but if a pregnant women has an abortion nothing happens. This is a little two-sided in my opinion. I could even go into the sanctity of life, which in a lot of conversations goes hand in hand with abortion, which is all sorts of wrong in my opinion. What are others thoughts on this?
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@ijesuschrist, and again you state as a fact that a foetus is a human being, but again I have to disagree with you. Yes it is my opinion that a foetus is not a human being yet, so as is yours that it is.
I did not know that the word ‘murder’ can only be used in classifying the killing of another human being, so I take my words back about you and all of us being murderers.
Abortion is necessary in some situations and should be used only in those necessary situations.
With this current capitalist system it’s hard to raise a child. If you can’t, abortion might be the way to go. It’s all up to the couple.
I don’t know about you guys, but when I was in my university’s pre-med program, the 7 characteristics of life got drilled into our heads- even in hs bio I’m sure kids learn this. Life is life if it has cells, movement, reproduction, adaptation, growth, metabolism,and irritability. I’m sure the fetus has all of these so.. at least that’s why I believe that life begins at the moment of conception, at least scientifically speaking.
I am also pro-life because we don’t exist longer than we do exist (as far as we know) as cognitive beings and it is a gift, at least from where I am standing. It’s crazy for me to think that out of all of the ways that the matter that formed to be me, could exist, I turned out to be a human being. So, this fetus is being given the same opportunity to be a thinking being. I’m sure that some people may think life is a curse, but from the way that I see it, they got to do so because they were given the opportunity to live.
I believe in the freedom to choose. I don’t believe a fetus has consciousness. It’s not something a person should do lightly, but I can think of a number of reasons a person would want to do it. “Stepping up” isn’t always an option. I would rather preserve my energies for dealing with the kids and people who are already here. And, like I always say, if you’re going to say, after a miscarriage or death, that it is “God’s will,” then God must be the biggest abortionist/murderer there is.
Survival of the fittest is part of evolution, it is not something you can believe in or not, it just is like that. It is how nature works, the strongest survive, how cruel that may sound.
And I do not tell you what you should do, I only say that parents should be allowed to make the choices themselves whether they want an abortion or not.
There are certain circumstances where I believe abortion should be an option, for example if the woman is raped. However abortion in the case of using it as contraception – to be put bluntly – shouldn’t be allowed.
I chuckle every time someone says “if you are pro choice then you also support murder, even if it it is only under certain circumstances.” No shit! But who says I don’t sometimes support murder. Some people should die. (Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Jerry Sandusky, Vlad the Impaler, Josef Mengele…)
There are many reasons women choose to have abortions, some financial or because she has no emotional or financial support. Some are due to the mental status of the woman or genetic tendencies. No one, of course, should be forced to have a baby if you’re raped or the victim of rape/incest. Some are done because the baby is not viable (that is when late-term abortions are done). It’s a personal choice. No amount of arguing will really change this; you believe it is your choice or you don’t.
I think its funny that women don’t seem to care as much. Shit, I’m sure a lot of guys would get pregnant if they could, but that is not how the world works, but that does not mean..just because I was born a male, that I do not deserve the same parental rights as a female.
I find it funny. Most women cry and bitch about equality, but this is certainly a topic where equality is not even an option.
Also, most people have never been through an abortion. This doesn’t mean they can’t have an opinion on it. Its a very important topic. Our goal is to become more humane, not less.
Personally I think abortion is just a form of ageism. Sure, a child in the womb is not fully developed, but guess what? neither are you. At every moment we are growing/changing. Some form of development goes on at every stage of life, sometimes (like during puberty) it’s very obvious and other times (like with an adult) it’s more subtle. Whether we are on our upswing on the way to the prime of our life, or headed down the other side, getting older, there’s no point where we stop changing. So, to end someone’s life because of what stage of their development they’re in… that’s just wrong. There’s no way it can ever be okay.
@manimal, You are forgetting the auxiliary purposes of sex: Taking advantage of girls, taking advantage of boys, getting jobs, establishing dominance without attaining merit, showing daddy how grown up you are and finally… winning.
There is only 1 situation that I can think of where an abortion isn’t done for selfish reasons, and that is when continuing with the pregnancy would put the mother’s life at risk. All other reasoning is selfish, in my opinion.
That is the most outrageous overgeneralization I’ve ever heard. I am almost speechless. It takes a lot to piss me off, and being stereotyped as “not caring” about THE most difficult experience of my life fucking disgusts me. This is one issue that I will step outside of my tolerant higher existence views of and say FUCK YOU for that judgment.
“Only one person, eh? Then clearly you’ve resisted many times… So clearly it’s very, very far from impossible.”
—You’re focusing a minority of people out of billions and holding the rest of the world to those standards which you’ve admitted you couldn’t even meet yourself. Again, you’re being unrealistic.
“So you’re anti-science too I see… You are just an animal, you are not above nature, deal with it.”
—I’m not anti-science, you’re just anti-psychology. Clearly you know nothing about animal behavior. Yes, humans are animals. And we’re the kind of animals that like to have sex for pleasure. We always will be. There’s nothing unnatural about that and it will never change.
“That only applies to rape. If you agreed to sex, you agreed to possible pregnancy. If that deal isn’t good enough for you, DON’T FUCK. Or get sterilized and keep fucking.”
—People wait to have children until they want to have children. They don’t wait to have sex until they want to have children. That’s just how it is. You can talk like this, but you sound like someone in deep denial.
And now this raises another question: if you consider yourself to be ‘pro-life,’ how could you be okay with abortion in the case of rape? If we’re talking about babies here, and you think we are, then we’re still talking about murder, rape or no rape.
“Nice try… but it doesn’t work. A stupid statement gets countered with the opposite stupid statement, as an attempt to show the first poster how stupid his enmity profile is. Keep that in mind.”
—So long as you’re admitting that you’re statement was stupid. You paint a generalized, overly-dramatic portrait of evil people happily and heartlessly committing wittle baby genocide, then say I’m the one demonizing people with opposite stances.
“…several feline and rodent mothers kill their babies when there’s a new male in town that they want to fuck. Should that be legal too? After all, it’s just a kid, it’s not smart like us so it’s ok to kill it… right?”
—These little scenarios are ridiculous. We’re not talking about children or babies. We’re talking about fetuses that can only survive by living inside of a person’s body. No other examples apply.
“Yeah, having them go to shady “doctors” is worse, but why should we even have this “safety net” in the first place? It technically just encourages irresponsibility and decadence. It’s the 21st century, one would think that humans were smart enough to learn from the mistakes that have been repeated millions of times…. But, clearly, that is not the case. Tragic.”
—Abortion clinics encourage people to have abortions as much as drug rehabilitation centers encourage people to do drugs. What it really does is provide safe healthcare for people who need it. Denying that from them would only cause them harm. Maybe one should stop dreaming about some idealistic fantasy-land and come back down to planet Earth.
“And, yknow, if she’s willing to risk her life just to kill her fetus… then that’s pretty messed up. She must really hate the unborn.”
—Or she’s really scared and desperate. That’s often the case. But you can call it hate if that helps perpetuate the image you need to sustain of all women who have abortions being cold-hearted, disgusting bitches.
“And how is it such a tragedy if a woman dies, but not if a baby dies? A life is a life, right?”
—It would be two lives, though, wouldn’t it? If you think that a fetus is a baby and it dies when a woman has an abortion, then the woman dying means there’s two deaths.
“Not only that, but even when abortion is legal, women still go to the illegal clinics because they waited too long (meaning there’s an actual developed baby in there.)”
—I’m sure that’s better regulated now, though, than it would be if abortion were completely illegal. Making abortion completely illegal is obviously not going to have any effect on the women you’re talking about.
“A straw man? For me? YAY!!! You’re making shit up, keep it together mate… I don’t care about adults because adults don’t need any care.”
—I say you don’t care about adults and you say, ‘Wrong. I don’t care about adults.’ Straw man my ass. I changed your example about old and handicapped people to make them as dependent as a fetus and you took the creative license to add that they got themselves into that misery, say it’s their own fault they got ill or injured in this unspecified way that would make them temporarily co-dependent, and say they wasted their chances in life and already had their good times. Very interesting to see how you made these characters come to life in your very cynical, limited imagination. Then, right after that, you said it’s the fetuses that are murdered in cold blood (because there was nothing cold about your attitude towards those “old farts” and the physically handicapped–the kind of adults that actually do need care). You explain why the fetuses are more important to you and take higher precedence over these other people: because they never had their chances (and there it is!) at life or had their good times. You even say they never got to live, which actually contradicts the entire notion that abortion is murder because you can’t kill something that was never alive (unless, when you said that, it was you just making discussion and not expressing your personal values).
Everything else you’ve said and keep saying goes by this same tune. Something that never got to live–was never alive, only had the chance to be so–is worth protecting and defending. Everyone else can fend for itself and, if they can’t, too bad, it’s their own fault. You care about babies being born, but you don’t care what happens to them after they’re grown. You can save a sentence or two for denying that, but everything else you write screams the opposite.
“Anti-choice? Come on, you know that’s a ridiculous term.”
—For the millionth time, making abortion illegal doesn’t stop women from having them. You are not ‘pro-life’ just because you think it should be illegal. You just think that women should have to risk their lives if they want to have one. There’s nothing pro-life about an attitude like that.
“But ok, I’ll play your game…. So how is Pro-death not accurate?”
—This example is stupid and far-fetched. For one thing, the woman IS the truck, she’s the one physically carrying the package, the fetus is the package but having sex doesn’t mean that she ordered it, no more than ordering it by having sex means that it’s going to be sent to her.
And if having an illegal abortion is crashing the truck, then having a legal one is safely pulling over and carefully removing it. You would rather the scenario where they crash while I prefer the latter. So no, this example makes you sound like you’re the one who’s pro-death.
“Why would I assume something that’s a fact? That would be pointless. If the woman doesn’t want to get pregnant and her man still knocks her up, then of fucking course he’s unreliable.”
—Sometimes condoms break or the pill doesn’t work. There’s not always someone to blame. It’s not always some woman getting carelessly knocked up by ‘her man.’ You should know better.
“If you trigger a miscarriage before the fetus develops then why would there be a problem? …Tried and true.”
—Abortion is, nine times out of ten, a person’s last resort. And, just like condoms, these methods aren’t guaranteed to keep you baby-proof. There’s always a small chance of failure.
“If you make choices, you gotta take the consequences. If you have sex and an unwanted pregancy happens, deal with it, it’s your own damn fault. If you have someone cut you open and you die, that’s your own damn fault too… Your choice, your consequences, your responsibility. Nobody else’s.”
—No one has to die from having an abortion so long as it remains legal. It would only result in death if people like you make it illegal again. Just admit it, you WANT for that to be a consequence.
“You don’t know what it’s like to live in an abortion-liberal country. If you did, I’m pretty sure you’d change your mind…”
—Your superiority complex is showing. You’re not making any points with this rant, you just sound bitter, whiney, and over-exaggerated. ‘Kids these days, blablabla…’
“That’s what happened to me. Could have been you. The fetus could have been you too, ever think of that?”
—Somebody cue the violins, he’s appealing to emotion.
If I was a fetus, I wouldn’t ever think of that because I wouldn’t be able to think. I would have no sense of self-awareness.
“That little boy or girl would have been 4 now… I remember being 4, it was amazing. I have a niece who’s 4 years old, every time I see her I start thinking what if they had exterminated her too? If my child hadn’t been murdered, they could have played together. But now he or she is dead.”
—What you’re mourning right now are dreams about something that never happened, not memories of something that did happen and is now lost. What was murdered was your hope, not an actual person. And you can mourn for that because it can be just as sad in its own way. But if you want to play at what if, then think of this: what if abortion was illegal, this woman had an illegal one, and she died with this fetus? Have you ever thought of that? Is that the way you’d prefer it?
“Could have been me, could have been you. How would you feel if your mother hired an assassin to kill you?”
—Bad, because I’m a self-aware adult with feelings.
“Where is the love?”
You tell me. You certainly don’t have it for old people, women who have had abortions, women who have died having abortions, people who are pro-choice (or ‘pro-death’), idiots who have sex, the physically handicapped or adults who are otherwise dependent… The more you talk, the more you add to this list.
It seems as though the concept of love is able to be thought about even because of generalizing extremely personal experiences into an idea. Abortion is an issue, happening right now in our culture. How do you not generalize at all? You can’t know, nor feel everyone’s personal experiences. You still need to be able to talk about it though.
It’s like people who do drugs have the experience so they know more about drugs, and may know what they are talking about more. Sure this is true, but to say people that don’t do drugs have no say in the issue is ridiculous. It still effects them, their culture and society, and how their children can grow up.
Now if the people that did drugs were women, and the people that didn’t or couldn’t do drugs were men, then how is this different? Men should still have a say, because it ultimately effects a large portion of their lives as well.
Yes there are many variables in the whole issue to take into consideration. It has been decided by groups that the morning after pill is a type of abortion, yes it could be considered that, but I personally would like to not be absolute in my view on this. There are these instances you raise about defects and silent rape victims that I would also have sympathy for. It is a very difficult subject because once you draw a line it is hard to undraw it. I primarily had accidental and irresponsible conception in mind with my earlier comments. You then permit one kind but not another, it is like saying one couple cannot get married but another can.
Yes Nikola, so instead of letting them go through hell on earth, why not sparing them the pain?
And Alex, of course you can believe whatever you like, I did not mean to say that you cannot believe this, but it is how it is. Also part of evolution/nature is the fact that you need a male and a female in order to reproduce, and you can believe it or not, it is how it is.
The fittest is the one that can best adapt to the environment he or she lives in. When only the weakest creatures would reproduce, they would not survive, so the law of survival of the fittest has always been there. Why do you think homo sapiens survived and homo eructus or other species extinguished? Because homo sapiens was the fittest, so in my opinion this is an universal law you cannot argue about.
@jesusbob, you are right that indeed women and what they want in this regard is a huge factor, but all humans need to collaborate on a wide variety of issues, including this, to find objective reason. That women are eerily silent on this issue is understandable, there are a variety of personal factors in this debate that are incredibly sensitive and are not as simple as logic, objective reason, right or wrong, choice or intervention and it is hard to discuss private matters in a public atmosphere. Kind of like a man just coming out with how with how he was sodomized as a kid.