I am just curious on people’s views on abortion. I personally am pro-choice. I believe it is someone’s body and there decision. Either way the U.S. should at least keep things straight, for example if a someone kills a pregnant women they get charged with two accounts of murder but if a pregnant women has an abortion nothing happens. This is a little two-sided in my opinion. I could even go into the sanctity of life, which in a lot of conversations goes hand in hand with abortion, which is all sorts of wrong in my opinion. What are others thoughts on this?
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I think the fact that I have been actively talking about this is a sign that I can somewhat imagine. I’m sorry that I don’t have the privilege to go through something such as pregnancy. I really wish I did. You are taking this too personally, and maybe rightfully so, but how is this topic much different from many others held on this sight? This one in particular is just a little more ‘touchy’
Again, sorry if I offended you, but I don’t take back any of my words.
@alltoohuman, A two week old baby is not fully developed and still must depend on the mother, though its already been born. Leave it alone and it’s going to die. It must not be ‘human’ then.
And define fully developed. Are we not always changing and developing?
I see no holes in my argument. Please, point them out for me.
Please watch this TED talk from conception to birth.
Society, government and industry/commerce is consistently failing in providing ALL humans with reasonable opportunities in life, what exactly is “reasonable opportunities” is the big question. Some believe the opportunity to be born is reasonable, fight with passion for that goal, but don’t continue to fight for reasonable opportunities for all beyond that.
That is hypocrisy, we have the right to be born but we do not have the right to live? Work on providing reasonable opportunities in life before you spend all your passion fighting to add more people to an inadequate system. Prioritize, is all I’m saying.
Pro Choice, means everyone has the right to choose. First, doesn’t the choice begin when you have sex? 2nd, Why does the male never get a choice? If the male does not want the child, he is still obligated to pay child support for forever. If there was a such thing as true choice, the male would be able to say, “I don’t want to pay for this child.” Which, in my opinion is more honorable than just killing the child because you are irresponsible.
If pro choice exists, it shouldn’t be biased towards only females.
The entire genetic code of the child exists at conception. The heartbeat can start just a little while after that, it doesn’t take long. If we allow pro choice, in order to take away life, then we can never actually live in a free world, where people can choose, because the ultimate choice to live is never an option for you.
Pro-life is the only sensible way.
Wow, the thing that made me decide to stick around this site and see it for how amazing it is is the very first topic I posted on here. I’m pregnant and don’t know what to do. I got nothing but support and love from people who didn’t even know me.
To see people be so judgmental just really sucks.
@alltoohuman, I was exemplifying what I considered to be bad logic with a very extreme example.
In both of your replies, I’ve noticed you post a lot of extraneous facts that are completely irrelevant to either argument.
I do believe that life begins at conception but logically you have to agree at the very least that after the brain has even started to grow, there is a consciousness in that unborn baby. A life that will be terminated. It is very hard for me to admit this as a sexually active young adult but if I was faced with such a decision as whether to abort or adopt I would choose adoption. My views don’t necessarily stand for cases of rape victims but many women actually give birth to the children anyway. Feel free to debate I don’t want this to turn into an argument because I want to hear other’s views on the subject as well.
@hollowinfinity, Alex it was just an example, it can be the uncle or aunt or brother or whoever. Furthermore, when you know your (yet unborn) child is going to have a one in a billion disease which will make normal life impossible and which will take 24/7 caring, why would it be so bad to do an abortion? I honestly find it more selfish, when you have the information of the disease upfront, to let the child be born. Not only it costs society a lot of money but also the parents, who lose their normal life.
And I am not talking about ideal environments, because that is not the issue in my opinion. Poverty does not necessarily mean a bad environment; I am sure there are children in poverty who are happier than some children in rich dome.
I am holding on to my first point: survival of the fittest. How cruel some things can be, nature is how it is.
OK, so suppose it is chance (I will not start a discussion whether chance exists or not, because we would go way too off topic) and a big part of the organisms living on the earth will die. But then again, the fittest (of the ones being left) will reproduce and survive, and evolution will take place. So the law would still apply in my opinion.
@hollowinfinity, How can you possibly equate men having to pay child support, a financial burden at worst, to a woman being allowed to choose whether she can have an abortion or not (or as you so crassly put it “killing children”), an extremely personal and life altering decision?
I am not for one second saying that men should not have a say, but only in a personal setting, not on the legal stage. This is not an issue that men should be debating as to the legality of it. To impose on a woman a law that says what she can and cannot do with her own body seems to me a infringement of her personal rights.
There simply is no equivalent for men, so how can we possibly understand what a women has to go through when she is pregnant with an unwanted child? How can we tell them what they can and cannot do when we have no clue what they are experiencing?
@manimal, “Sex only has one purpose, reproduction. That’s all it’s for. If you do it for some other reason, and really don’t want a child, then you’re a complete idiot. There’s always a possibility of pregnancy, because that’s what sex is for.
If you’re not prepared for that, don’t have sex.”
This argument is beyond unrealistic. People are idiots if they have sex for any reason other than to make a child? So are you saying that you’re a virgin or that you’re a father? Or are you saying that you’re an idiot, like almost everyone ever? Desire is an animal instinct within all of us, one that’s nearly impossible to resist when you’re with someone where there’s mutual attraction. You can call if folly, but it’s human nature.
And should babies really be considered the consequence of sex? A punishment for the irresponsible? Isn’t that reducing their lives (that you seem to be so concerned about) to a pretty miniscule level? Sort of like using them to prove a point instead actually caring about what happens to them after their born.
Also, my boyfriend used to work with a guy who likes to get around. He gets tested for STDs monthly, always wears a condom, and has a separate bank account with over a thousand dollars in it just in case he accidentally does get someone pregnant. Feel free to judge him, it’s the easiest thing in the world to do, but I think calling him unprepared would be an inaccurate description.
“Yeah, a fetus is a human being, not just a cluster of cells. It’s defenseless and never did anything to anyone. Our neighbours did. Everyone did, every grown person is guilty. The fetus is innocent.”
This doesn’t even make sense to me. What does innocence have to do with anything? Is that what you’re trying to save, innocence? Is that what gives a life value? What a relative, transitory thing. No wonder people stop caring what happens to the babies once they’re born. It’s all about the idea of something they care about and not about saving an actual person. If it is a person you’re trying to save, then the loss of innocence is going to be a part of that. Innocence is not something that can be preserved. Babies grow up to be adults that will make choices you won’t agree with. They’ll probably have sex for fun, too. Maybe even have abortions of their own. And if abortion is illegal, maybe they’ll die having an illegal one, like so many women have before them. But you’ll have stopped caring by that point, I’m sure. Maybe you’d even say all the women who’ve died having illegal abortions deserved that, too. Just like they deserved to get pregnant for their irresponsibility in the first place.
“Well, so do old people. So let’s abort them too. Like in the old days, just push them off a cliff or something. Oh and the mentally handicapped, and the homeless, and the starving people of poor nations. Let’s just kill em all, because after all they’re just cell clusters that are not like us. And not like us means ok to kill…”
A more accurate comparison would be this: An elderly or mentally handicapped individual is dying because they need a kidney transplant. Should you be forced to give them your kidney in order for them to survive? Should you be called a murderer if you refuse? What if they need more than a kidney? What if they need to be attached to you and feed off of your nutrients for almost a year? Should you be obligated to support them? What if it was your own child, now a grown adult? Maybe you would support them anyway, but should you be FORCED to? How much of yourself should you have to sacrifice and for how long? Where should the line be drawn?
Honestly, this post was surprising to me coming from you, because I distinctly remember another post you made about the Boston massacre. You questioned the idea of it being a tragedy when a human life ends. So how does that not contradict this? And you basically asked if their lives were such a great loss because they were probably people that would have been disliked anyway. Basically, the only lives that matter are the ones who haven’t even been born yet.
@placid, even rape. As terrible as that sounds, I’ve seen the situations. While I don’t fully understand all of the feelings involved, I can appreciate the gravity of it. But that being said it is still for selfish reasons. That child did nothing to bring about that situation and while you can empathize more with a woman in that situation it is still selfish.
I think my opinion on this was not clear enough. People are making babies and they’re still fucking stupid. That’s better. Devolution. I am strictly with George Carlin’s point of view on this.
People who are against abortions are usually the people you don’t want to fuck in the first place.
I can’t see a taboo here. Maybe vulgarisms and simplicity are too difficult to comprehend for the people who constantly complicate their lives, because of their own boredom, stupidity and choices of little perspective. <- this is hidden with the words fun and love. :)
You can feel free without doing the stupidest things in the world after all. Common fucking sense.
Personally, I don't give a fuck about abortions of incredibly dumb women. The fucked up thing is seeing "16 and pregnant" girls who deny their own existence.
Peace and stupidity.
Relax peoples. This whole discussion illustrates a key problem with the issue. I think it’s tragic that people are often forced to have abortions due to financial stress, work issues, etc. Ellie, I’m very sorry you had to go through that.
I, personally, am against abortion, but I am not anti-choice. I think that if pro-lifers truly cared about saving potential lives, they would approach the situation in a completely different manner. First of all, illegalizing abortions would not stop them. They are already legal in most of the developed world, and they WILL continue to happen in secrecy, without adequate regulation and care, if they are illegalized.
Second, the best way to prevent abortions is to make birth control freely available, and to teach sex education in schools. Nobody plans to have an abortion while they are having sex. By doing this, the number of abortions that occur could be drastically lowered.
And finally, we should not allow financial stress to prevent a mother from being able to care for her child. We should drastically increased paid maternal leave, and create additional options to help mothers cope with their new responsibilities.
Most pro-lifers are conservatives who oppose every single one of these measures, but I believe that a progressive pro-life, pro-choice effort could effectively put this issue to rest.
But yeah, I believe people have the right to choose anything in life, as long as all involved consent to it. People can choose birth control, there is a thing called the morning after pill. Just don’t start nothin, wont be nothin. Take responsibility for fuck sake, no one wants to kill a fetus, no matter how new, it is one of the worst things anyone feels they have to do. So avoid it like the plague and if you fuck up, step up.
I think abortion is not classified as murder because I don’t consider that child alive until they exit the womb and it should be a choice that individuals have the option to explore if some kind of accident/rape occurs.
@Filip I don’t think you can say that its even survival of the fittest in this case because its not as if though the baby has a chance or a way to fight back.
@epath, Some women do; some do not.
When I said men do not have a choice, I meant legally. Of course personally they will in some cases, but legally they do not. I think that’s where the confusion lies in our debate.
I’m merely pointing out the legal double standard here. If a man gets a girl pregnant, he is forced to face the consequences. If a woman gets pregnant, she isn’t. I’m not implying anything else.
@jesusbob, Well if you can kill a child because its ‘inconvenient’ for you for 9 months, then you have some stuff to work out. Men have a say because 1) that baby is part of them too, and 2) babies are what continue human life. Men have a say in the continuance of human life. Since adoption is an option, the men should have at least some legal say in the death of his child.
I prefer to protect the rights of the unborn, because if we don’t, then we are never really free, are we?
So, if you can hold the position you do, then WHY is it fair to men to have to pay child support when he doesn’t want the child, but nothing happens to the women when she doesn’t want the child?