@jesusbob, you are right that indeed women and what they want in this regard is a huge factor, but all humans need to collaborate on a wide variety of issues, including this, to find objective reason. That women are eerily silent on this issue is understandable, there are a variety of personal factors in this debate that are incredibly sensitive and are not as simple as logic, objective reason, right or wrong, choice or intervention and it is hard to discuss private matters in a public atmosphere. Kind of like a man just coming out with how with how he was sodomized as a kid.
I am pro- choice. I think it must suck to be an unwanted child. Even if you’re adopted afterwards, babies are affected by the way the mother handles the pregnancy.
And yes, a fetus is life and consciousness, and that is precious, but so are all the other beings around us, and they die and kill each other all the time. A bug can kill a person and it doesn’t care. Some animals eat their young. There is no life without death. It’s sort of a cosmic sacrifice. The fact that life is precious does not mean that it’s bad thing when it ends.
Finally, if you don’t want an abortion, be careful, but nothing gives you the right to tell others what the can or can’t do.
@jesusbob, Your argument makes no sense. Guys have no say in child support, THATS RIDICULOUS! but, woman have complete say in killing children, COMPLETELY NOT RIDICULOUS!
Please watch this TED talk from conception to birth.
@hollowinfinity, How can you possibly equate men having to pay child support, a financial burden at worst, to a woman being allowed to choose whether she can have an abortion or not (or as you so crassly put it “killing children”), an extremely personal and life altering decision?
I am not for one second saying that men should not have a say, but only in a personal setting, not on the legal stage. This is not an issue that men should be debating as to the legality of it. To impose on a woman a law that says what she can and cannot do with her own body seems to me a infringement of her personal rights.
There simply is no equivalent for men, so how can we possibly understand what a women has to go through when she is pregnant with an unwanted child? How can we tell them what they can and cannot do when we have no clue what they are experiencing?
@jesusbob, Well if you can kill a child because its ‘inconvenient’ for you for 9 months, then you have some stuff to work out. Men have a say because 1) that baby is part of them too, and 2) babies are what continue human life. Men have a say in the continuance of human life. Since adoption is an option, the men should have at least some legal say in the death of his child.
So, if you can hold the position you do, then WHY is it fair to men to have to pay child support when he doesn’t want the child, but nothing happens to the women when she doesn’t want the child?
Also, unborn babies may not be on the census, but if you were drunk driving and hit a lady who was preggo, you’d be charged with double homicide.
Oh jesus fucking bloody christ, this again.
It’s funny that from what I can see almost every contributor in this conversation is a male. If you’ve never been through it yourself, you should probably just shut the fuck up.
I think its funny that women don’t seem to care as much. Shit, I’m sure a lot of guys would get pregnant if they could, but that is not how the world works, but that does not mean..just because I was born a male, that I do not deserve the same parental rights as a female.
I find it funny. Most women cry and bitch about equality, but this is certainly a topic where equality is not even an option.
That is the most outrageous overgeneralization I’ve ever heard. I am almost speechless. It takes a lot to piss me off, and being stereotyped as “not caring” about THE most difficult experience of my life fucking disgusts me. This is one issue that I will step outside of my tolerant higher existence views of and say FUCK YOU for that judgment.
You’re taking it waaaaaay to personal. You can get angry if you want. Sorry for the offense!
It IS personal, and you need to be called out on the fact that you are dehumanizing real people that go through things that you can’t possibly imagine. You think it’s an easy decision? Can you even comprehend the thought of a life growing inside of you and the turmoil of deciding you cannot afford to go through the pregnancy and miss work to give it up for adoption, or pay to keep the child? No, you can’t, because you don’t have a fucking uterus. I see you go on about this all the time and I’ve held back so here it is.
I think the fact that I have been actively talking about this is a sign that I can somewhat imagine. I’m sorry that I don’t have the privilege to go through something such as pregnancy. I really wish I did. You are taking this too personally, and maybe rightfully so, but how is this topic much different from many others held on this sight? This one in particular is just a little more ‘touchy’
Wow, the thing that made me decide to stick around this site and see it for how amazing it is is the very first topic I posted on here. I’m pregnant and don’t know what to do. I got nothing but support and love from people who didn’t even know me.
To see people be so judgmental just really sucks.
Relax peoples. This whole discussion illustrates a key problem with the issue. I think it’s tragic that people are often forced to have abortions due to financial stress, work issues, etc. Ellie, I’m very sorry you had to go through that.
I, personally, am against abortion, but I am not anti-choice. I think that if pro-lifers truly cared about saving potential lives, they would approach the situation in a completely different manner. First of all, illegalizing abortions would not stop them. They are already legal in most of the developed world, and they WILL continue to happen in secrecy, without adequate regulation and care, if they are illegalized.
Second, the best way to prevent abortions is to make birth control freely available, and to teach sex education in schools. Nobody plans to have an abortion while they are having sex. By doing this, the number of abortions that occur could be drastically lowered.
And finally, we should not allow financial stress to prevent a mother from being able to care for her child. We should drastically increased paid maternal leave, and create additional options to help mothers cope with their new responsibilities.
Most pro-lifers are conservatives who oppose every single one of these measures, but I believe that a progressive pro-life, pro-choice effort could effectively put this issue to rest.
Ellie, I’m not being judgmental. I think no more or no less of you for your decisions..and I never will to any person, especially on a topic such as this. I may disagree with a lot of people, and I will not change my opinion to come across as less judgmental. I can disagree with what a lot of people are doing on Earth, but if I’m angry or judgmental about it towards everyone, then nothing happens, and its a giant waste of time. When I talk about it -in general, because that is what we are doing- it’s a different story. I’m talking about the issue itself, not individual personal experiences.
I, personally know women who had over 5 abortions and just don’t talk about it much and I should not be even sharing this on the internet. Just because it is personal and it’s no one else’s business in the first place, and after all they’ve been through, don’t want to complain and put the burden on other people. I respect those women, even though they acknowledge that the decision is based every person involved. And yes, we should really try to be more humane, because every pregnancy is basically your future and everyone involved in it. Of course, I can speak only from a male’s point of view. That’s not even for a debate. Sheesh.
That’s the thing Alex, you are generalizing extremely personal experiences, which is nonsensical in itself and implies an objective reality which does not even fucking exist. It’s like making gay marriage a political issue. Something as personal as love or pregnancy should not be up for “general” discussion, especially by people who have no idea what they’re talking about. That includes the male politicians constantly making decisions about this stuff… And yes, that includes you. I just can’t imagine what it must be like to think you have a right to render a moral judgment on an issue that you are literally physically incapable of experiencing yourself.
Some people believe that a developing fetus has a genuine life, and that aborting that fetus is akin to murdering that life. So I can understand why somebody would be against that. I just think illegalization would accomplish nothing. But you don’t have to be capable of childbirth to believe that abortion is immoral.
If both sides don’t acknowledge the merit in the others’ argument, you’ll never stop fighting. And you could both be gentler about it to a stranger over the internet.
@Phil. W, you can also very easily justify killing a newborn baby with scientific theories. But that is simply not the issue here. It is a spiritual, implied idea of life, that is not certain, but believed. You have to respect peoples’ beliefs. And I’m not anti-choice, I just think we should take different measures to make abortions less common, and make life easier on women who have to make these tough decisions.
It seems as though the concept of love is able to be thought about even because of generalizing extremely personal experiences into an idea. Abortion is an issue, happening right now in our culture. How do you not generalize at all? You can’t know, nor feel everyone’s personal experiences. You still need to be able to talk about it though.
@hollowinfinity, It’s not just a matter of inconvenience for the mother or father. It is sometimes a matter of wanting to protect the child from a world of suffering.
Sup. I want to revive this thread because I was going to make my own if I couldn’t find it. Some active HEthans already posted here, but I want you to post again if you’ve changed your views or want to add to them.
So…what do you think of abortion?
Personally, it comes down to responsibility for me. At the same time, it’s not my–or anyone else’s–business as to why a woman might get an abortion. If the potential parents aren’t responsible about it…Well, I hope they have sense enough to learn from what might have been a mistake.
Also, I do believe men have a say in abortion. Not the final say…but a say. I mean, the kid is just as much his as it is hers. I would never get an abortion (period, but also) without talking to whomever the father may be (save for a rapist).
Needless to say, I’m pro-choice, if anyone wants a label.
a cell is a cell. an early zygote is the same genetically as a large bacteria or one of the trillions of plant cells in a large tree. a house fly is vastly more complex than any fertilized egg but most people would not even think twice about swatting a fly or chopping down a tree. If your gonna call something “life” don’t discriminate. If a zygote is life, then any type of cell is life. people die around the world more often than you blink. If someone wants to terminate a pregnancy for any reason whatsoever, they should be allowed. It is their body. If you think that it is murder then simply don’t get an abortion. It’s not rocket science.
It can all be summed up with the analogy of “getting angry when someone eats a donuts near you because your on a diet.” If you are against abortion the answer is simple: don’t get one.
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