I am just curious on people’s views on abortion. I personally am pro-choice. I believe it is someone’s body and there decision. Either way the U.S. should at least keep things straight, for example if a someone kills a pregnant women they get charged with two accounts of murder but if a pregnant women has an abortion nothing happens. This is a little two-sided in my opinion. I could even go into the sanctity of life, which in a lot of conversations goes hand in hand with abortion, which is all sorts of wrong in my opinion. What are others thoughts on this?
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Relax peoples. This whole discussion illustrates a key problem with the issue. I think it’s tragic that people are often forced to have abortions due to financial stress, work issues, etc. Ellie, I’m very sorry you had to go through that.
I, personally, am against abortion, but I am not anti-choice. I think that if pro-lifers truly cared about saving potential lives, they would approach the situation in a completely different manner. First of all, illegalizing abortions would not stop them. They are already legal in most of the developed world, and they WILL continue to happen in secrecy, without adequate regulation and care, if they are illegalized.
Second, the best way to prevent abortions is to make birth control freely available, and to teach sex education in schools. Nobody plans to have an abortion while they are having sex. By doing this, the number of abortions that occur could be drastically lowered.
And finally, we should not allow financial stress to prevent a mother from being able to care for her child. We should drastically increased paid maternal leave, and create additional options to help mothers cope with their new responsibilities.
Most pro-lifers are conservatives who oppose every single one of these measures, but I believe that a progressive pro-life, pro-choice effort could effectively put this issue to rest.
But yeah, I believe people have the right to choose anything in life, as long as all involved consent to it. People can choose birth control, there is a thing called the morning after pill. Just don’t start nothin, wont be nothin. Take responsibility for fuck sake, no one wants to kill a fetus, no matter how new, it is one of the worst things anyone feels they have to do. So avoid it like the plague and if you fuck up, step up.
I think abortion is not classified as murder because I don’t consider that child alive until they exit the womb and it should be a choice that individuals have the option to explore if some kind of accident/rape occurs.
@Filip I don’t think you can say that its even survival of the fittest in this case because its not as if though the baby has a chance or a way to fight back.
@epath, Some women do; some do not.
When I said men do not have a choice, I meant legally. Of course personally they will in some cases, but legally they do not. I think that’s where the confusion lies in our debate.
I’m merely pointing out the legal double standard here. If a man gets a girl pregnant, he is forced to face the consequences. If a woman gets pregnant, she isn’t. I’m not implying anything else.
@jesusbob, Well if you can kill a child because its ‘inconvenient’ for you for 9 months, then you have some stuff to work out. Men have a say because 1) that baby is part of them too, and 2) babies are what continue human life. Men have a say in the continuance of human life. Since adoption is an option, the men should have at least some legal say in the death of his child.
I prefer to protect the rights of the unborn, because if we don’t, then we are never really free, are we?
So, if you can hold the position you do, then WHY is it fair to men to have to pay child support when he doesn’t want the child, but nothing happens to the women when she doesn’t want the child?
@hopalongmcgurk, “This argument is beyond unrealistic. People are idiots if they have sex for any reason other than to make a child?”
They sure are.
It’s as realistic as it gets.
“So are you saying that you’re a virgin or that you’re a father? Or are you saying that you’re an idiot, like almost everyone ever?”
Pretty sure I’m a father, and an idiot like the rest.
“Desire is an animal instinct within all of us, one that’s nearly impossible to resist when you’re with someone where there’s mutual attraction. You can call if folly, but it’s human nature.”
Near impossible to resist. Haha, good one. If you really think that’s true, you must have an unusually weak mine.
I have a clinical diagnose stating that I’m a sex addict, and even I don’t find it too hard to resist. People resist that urge all the time.
Human nature my ass, human nature is being conscious and making choices.
“And should babies really be considered the consequence of sex?”
Well yeah, you have sex and a baby comes out. That’s what sex is for. It’s not a matter of considering, it’s a solid fact.
“A punishment for the irresponsible? Isn’t that reducing their lives (that you seem to be so concerned about) to a pretty miniscule level?”
Those are your words, not mine. Of course it’s not a punishment, it’s a really fucking cool thing.
“Sort of like using them to prove a point instead actually caring about what happens to them after their born.”
That might be the case with those American conservatives, but there’s a whole world out there yknow. There’s a world outside the media, a world outside your borders. A world where it’s not black and white.
One person is against abortion and doesn’t care about what happens after death, and you assume that all the people who don’t like happy-go-lucky slaughter of unborn babies are the same way.
Or you’re just regurgitating the same old catchphrase that all the other typical pro-death followers have been slinging ever since Carlin said it.
“Feel free to judge him, it’s the easiest thing in the world to do, but I think calling him unprepared would be an inaccurate description.”
Why would I judge him? I don’t judge.
And if you’d actually read the post you’re replying to, you’d have understood that I encourage the people who are prepared.
I don’t see the point of condoms though, then you might as well go home and fuck a balloon or a rubber glove.
“It’s all about the idea of something they care about and not about saving an actual person”
Again you’re making stuff up. Pulling it out of thin air.
The actual person is what I want to save, not a concept. Not everyone is an American stereotype, widen your views.
The kid deserves a fucking chance. Grown people have had their chances, and the majority have wasted theirs. The unborn haven’t.
“Babies grow up to be adults that will make choices you won’t agree with.”
Oh wow, mind blown. Cuz it’s not like I thought before taking a stance or anything….
Why would I mind that they do stuff I don’t like? I want freedom, their choices are theirs to make, it’s none of my business.
I respect people, I don’t have a problem with disagreements. That’s the difference.
“But you’ll have stopped caring by that point, I’m sure.”
More unfounded assumptions. What you trying to get out of this shit?
A bunch of people stop caring, but then again, a kid that’s old enough to make it on her own needs no care.
Personally I do care, but not about adults.
“Maybe you’d even say all the women who’ve died having illegal abortions deserved that, too. Just like they deserved to get pregnant for their irresponsibility in the first place.”
Well, let’s see now. First you choose to have reckless sex with someone unreliable. Then you choose to wait until it’s too late to trigger a miscarriage. Then you choose to not keep the baby. Then you choose to go to a shady “doctor” and have him slice you open.
You don’t see what’s happening there? It’s all a bunch of choices, choices have consequences. If you take action, you desere the outcome. Always.
“A more accurate comparison would be this: [...]”
There’s nothing accurate about that comparison.
Not giving that dying person the help they “need” is not murder, because you’re not doing anything. You don’t kill them, you don’t do anything to them. And they got themselves into that misery, and they’ve had their chance at life and wasted it. They’ve had their good times.
Severing something with a knife to kill it, yeah that’s intentional killing. Murder. They fetus didn’t bring the abortion upon herself, she’s murdered in cold blood with no way to defend. She never had a chance, never got to live, never got to enjoy the good times.
How on earth can you think your comparison is even the least bit accurate?
One case is letting nature have its way, letting the old person deal with the consequences of her actions, you have no part in it.
The other case is going out of your way to slaughter an unborn, your own child, to avoid facing the consequences of your actions.
” You questioned the idea of it being a tragedy when a human life ends. So how does that not contradict this?”
Well first of all, there’s a huge difference between questioning an opinion, and stating values.
Me writing something does not mean I’m expressing my personal values or opinions. It’s called discussion.
Where have you been?
Second, there’s no contradiction even if both views were mine. Think of it like this, you’ve got a fruit bowl full of rotting fruit. They’re no good to you, they’re attracting vermin, stinking up the place, touching them could make you sick, and so on.
Then there’s a free delivery of fresh fruit at your doorstep.
Now your way would be to stomp the shit out of that fresh fruit and throw it in the garbage, and try your best to keep the rotten fruit from dissolving or being eaten up by the vermin.
My way is to throw the old shit in the trash, clean the bowl, and fill it with the fresh new batch which hopefully and highly probably will be much better than the last one.
In order for new great things to be, first we must clear some space for them, and if that mean some corrupt old shit has to go that’s an added bonus.
Ellie, I’m not being judgmental. I think no more or no less of you for your decisions..and I never will to any person, especially on a topic such as this. I may disagree with a lot of people, and I will not change my opinion to come across as less judgmental. I can disagree with what a lot of people are doing on Earth, but if I’m angry or judgmental about it towards everyone, then nothing happens, and its a giant waste of time. When I talk about it -in general, because that is what we are doing- it’s a different story. I’m talking about the issue itself, not individual personal experiences.
I wouldn’t hate someone or judge them if they had an abortion, but I can still disagree with it.
@epath, ‘We’ might not be talking about women, but I am. You still don’t recognize the double standard?
A man can’t just walk away. He’s still legally responsible to pay child support if he gets a woman pregnant. Why should a man be tied down by having sex but a woman not?
A man shouldn’t be required to support the baby if the mother isn’t.
Good thing I don’t believe things operate on a ‘survival of the fittest’ basis.
I have a brother who is in and out of prison. You never know what he’s going to do. Should that mean that I should abort my child because I could be exposing the child to a bad environment? Also, if the parents themselves aren’t all together, maybe having a child is just the catalyst they need to get their shit together. And as far as the disease thing goes, that should be handled case by case, no over-ruling law on the subject. And if its 1/a billion, then chances are it won’t happen often so it can be handled case by case.
@jesusbob, Why do men have a say? Well because birth is the driving force of human life! Men=PART OF HUMAN LIFE. If you wanna be pro-choice it should be fair across the board. The male should choose if he wants to pay child support or not.
Obviously its the woman’s body and therefore she will always have more say ultimately, but if men could choose if they wanted to pay child support or not, or sue the woman if she aborted his child, then maybe people would think about it a little more.
Personally, I think choice starts when you decide to have sex. Everyone knows pregnancy is always a chance.
So I think what we mean here is people are “post-choice” and not, “Pro-choice”
I am personally pro abortion. Given the thought that craploads of people and children alike(not saying children arent people) die by other means than nature all the time. I dont see how we feel so special to save some persons cell ball(for those pro conceptionists) yet so willing to murder their neighbor over petty life squabbles( religion, racisim, etc..)
But hey I’m just a teenager and as all the adults around me say, my opinion doesnt matter.
@ijesuschrist, I’m sorry to disappoint you but it is not a fact. We have to agree first upon the fact that an unborn foetus can be classified as a human being already. And in this matter we differ, because I do not find a foetus a human being until it will come out of the mother and live his life independently on earth. No matter if its one day old or nine months old.
And I have to disappoint you once again, because I am not succumbing to cognitive dissonance. Yes a foetus is life, but until it will be born, it is part of the mother, and therefore it cannot be classified as individual life yet in my opinion. It is part of the motter like any other organ, because it cannot live its life independently yet. So one can argue that killing the foetus is nothing more than killing an organ, even when the foetus (supposedly) is conscious.
And in your way of thinking we are all murderers, not of human beings, but of life, because all of us have killed some sort of life in some sort of way, even when it was not consciously. When you do not agree with me that you are a murderer, you are succumbing to cognitive dissonance.
@minch, A skin cell is not a human cell. Are you seriously not understanding what I’m saying? A skin cell is NOT a human. It is a skin cell that is part of a human. That isn’t my opinion. That is scientific fact.
And yes, the rest of my views are my opinion. I thought that’s what this topic was about?
By your logic, murder is okay because of how many people there are, what does one death matter? I believe a zygote is a human, just at the very beginning of their development. A sperm cell or a skin cell is not a human.
@biancavila, It’s cool that you say that. I’m looking through these old posts and getting annoyed because people aren’t sharing the same views as I.
But, pffft. I get to yours and I feel silly. Kudos to you, seriously. Well said.
We’re focusing on the wrong argument.
We should start in schools, IMO, where sex ed. is more often than not taught with a preachy overtone or incorrectly overall. It such schools, teen pregnancy is higher, lol. If we teach kids honestly and objectively they’ll make their own personal and educated choices.
If you can’t remember your embryo days, I suspect you should stop smashing your opinion around the green house.
If an embryo doesn’t want to be aborted, maybe it should do something about it, like the blacks and the jews did.
I, personally know women who had over 5 abortions and just don’t talk about it much and I should not be even sharing this on the internet. Just because it is personal and it’s no one else’s business in the first place, and after all they’ve been through, don’t want to complain and put the burden on other people. I respect those women, even though they acknowledge that the decision is based every person involved. And yes, we should really try to be more humane, because every pregnancy is basically your future and everyone involved in it. Of course, I can speak only from a male’s point of view. That’s not even for a debate. Sheesh.
Usually I am the mad one around here. :)
@nikola, you are right, but I am talking about cases where certain diseases can be found out during pregnancy, or when it is known that the baby will be born without arms, or for example siamese twins etc. I really believe that it is better to do an abortion in these cases (when the parents want to of course)
And I agree with your first point, it should be the choice of the parents whether they want an abortion or not.
@grantgodfrey7, Semen is a made up of human cells as well. And it can arguably be said to have it’s own consciousness since it lives outside the male body, and within the testicles without needing to be latched onto a biological life support system (umbilical cord). Upon leaving the male body semen can live for several days within a vagina. Whereas if a fetus were to have it’s umbilical cord or placenta ruptured/torn it would die before a certain state of development (starting around 27 weeks gestation).