Abortion Views

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Avatar of Ed Seguin
Ed Seguin (@typhon300)    2 years, 4 months ago

I am just curious on people’s views on abortion. I personally am pro-choice. I believe it is someone’s body and there decision. Either way the U.S. should at least keep things straight, for example if a someone kills a pregnant women they get charged with two accounts of murder but if a pregnant women has an abortion nothing happens. This is a little two-sided in my opinion. I could even go into the sanctity of life, which in a lot of conversations goes hand in hand with abortion, which is all sorts of wrong in my opinion. What are others thoughts on this?

4 votes, posted 04.01.2012 at 1:08 am
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Milo (@milo)1 year, 11 months ago ago

We had this discussion in my government class and it got very intense. We had to choose sides strictly on agreeing or disagreeing. No grey area, Pro life or Pro choice. Anyway one girl didn’t move and the teacher asked for her opinion. She said “PRO ABORTION” and my teacher said, don’t you mean pro choice?
She responded no, PRO ABORTION, I believe the worlds already way too populated and everyone should get it. The teacher was speechless and all I could say was holy shit.

Really tho it should totally be up to the female, whatever’s growing in their belly is their responsibility and their choice whatever it maybe.

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Milo (@milo)1 year, 11 months ago ago

@hector, I don’t understand what this means but I’m curious. Maybe you could tell us more?

What about abolishing the death penalty? Ive met alot of people who are pro choice and fine with abortion but outright express their views about how negative and bad and vile capital punishment is.

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pat (@epath)1 year, 11 months ago ago

@grantgodfrey7, That is pretty funny. A woman ISN’T TIED DOWN? You’ve got to be kidding!!!!! Women have to bear the child and raise it and pay some of the costs of that raising and do a lot of the day to day things men never even think of. So I think it is pretty evenly split.

I was thinking last night that it would be a lot simpler if people who have sex could talk to each other before doing so and find out what the other person thinks about the nature of choice. That is, if the man definitely does not want to help raise a child or is against abortion, the woman should know that. Likewise, women should tell men if she is pro or against abortion. Unfortunately, many people fall into the sack without thinking because of raging hormones.

Many men respond as if it is only single women who get abortions, but married women do, too–with their husband’s blessings. Not all birth control works and people are fallible. For many, it is better to be able to care for their existing children rather than having another one. Poverty makes people make tough choices.

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Avatar of Floater
Floater (@grantgodfrey7)1 year, 11 months ago ago

@epath, I think you misunderstood my point… I meant women aren’t tied down by sex because they can choose to abort the baby. Men are tied down by sex; they have zero choice in anything (not saying they should have a choice in abortion, but honestly I don’t believe the woman should either except maybe in very rare cases).

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Avatar of pat
pat (@epath)1 year, 11 months ago ago

@grantgodfrey7, You have a bad opinion of women, frankly. Many women don’t just abort a baby without asking the man. If men are not willing to take on responsibilities, women are more likely to abort a fetus.

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Floater (@grantgodfrey7)1 year, 11 months ago ago

@epath, Do I? I believe men and women are equal; I apologize if that offends you.

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pat (@epath)1 year, 11 months ago ago

@grantgodfrey7, No, but you seem to believe that women will abort a fetus with no imput from men. That’s as bad as saying all men are deadbeat dads.

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Floater (@grantgodfrey7)1 year, 11 months ago ago

@epath, Some women do; some do not.

When I said men do not have a choice, I meant legally. Of course personally they will in some cases, but legally they do not. I think that’s where the confusion lies in our debate.

I’m merely pointing out the legal double standard here. If a man gets a girl pregnant, he is forced to face the consequences. If a woman gets pregnant, she isn’t. I’m not implying anything else.

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Damage_Controll (@simple7enigma)1 year, 11 months ago ago

I am personally pro abortion. Given the thought that craploads of people and children alike(not saying children arent people) die by other means than nature all the time. I dont see how we feel so special to save some persons cell ball(for those pro conceptionists) yet so willing to murder their neighbor over petty life squabbles( religion, racisim, etc..)
But hey I’m just a teenager and as all the adults around me say, my opinion doesnt matter.

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hazel (@hazel)1 year, 10 months ago ago

I don’t know about you guys, but when I was in my university’s pre-med program, the 7 characteristics of life got drilled into our heads- even in hs bio I’m sure kids learn this. Life is life if it has cells, movement, reproduction, adaptation, growth, metabolism,and irritability. I’m sure the fetus has all of these so.. at least that’s why I believe that life begins at the moment of conception, at least scientifically speaking.
I am also pro-life because we don’t exist longer than we do exist (as far as we know) as cognitive beings and it is a gift, at least from where I am standing. It’s crazy for me to think that out of all of the ways that the matter that formed to be me, could exist, I turned out to be a human being. So, this fetus is being given the same opportunity to be a thinking being. I’m sure that some people may think life is a curse, but from the way that I see it, they got to do so because they were given the opportunity to live.

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james (@jamescorben)1 year, 2 months ago ago

There are certain circumstances where I believe abortion should be an option, for example if the woman is raped. However abortion in the case of using it as contraception – to be put bluntly – shouldn’t be allowed.

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Avatar of ELI var namnet
ELI var namnet (@manimal)1 year, 2 months ago ago

@jamescorben, See this is a balanced and functional standpoint that’s been thought through.
If only more people would think before forming opinions.

@simple7enigma, Cell ball? A fetus is not a cell ball, it really is a human being. An embryo could be considered a cell ball, but it’s much more alive than you think. It’s alive, and it can feel pain. It’s defenseless and did nothing to nobody.

A lot of people compare abortion to ejaculation or menstruation, but that’s frankly a really dumb argument. Because those are single cells that are not “human,” they come from humans but they’re not humans. They’re not a whole organism.

Eating an egg is not similar to abortion, because those eggs are not fertilized. They’re chicken menstruation, more or less.

But the thing that really disgusts me about abortion is that you’re killing your own offspring. Such a violation of nature, and of human life. But I guess it’s self sanitation, natural selection at work, the failed specimen weeding themselves out.

Sex only has one purpose, reproduction. That’s all it’s for. If you do it for some other reason, and really don’t want a child, then you’re a complete idiot. There’s always a possibility of pregnancy, because that’s what sex is for.
If you’re not prepared for that, don’t have sex.

Killing for comfort and avoiding responsibility, a behaviour only exhibited by the lowliest of humans. They’re willing to go so far for their moment-to-moment indulgence that they’ll kill their own babies.

Yeah, a fetus is a human being, not just a cluster of cells. It’s defenseless and never did anything to anyone.

Our neighbours did. Everyone did, every grown person is guilty. The fetus is innocent.

So abortion is ok because the “cell ball” is barely alive, doesn’t think like we do, and brings problems to your life?

Well, so do old people. So let’s abort them too. Like in the old days, just push them off a cliff or something.

Oh and the mentally handicapped, and the homeless, and the starving people of poor nations.

Let’s just kill em all, because after all they’re just cell clusters that are not like us.
And not like us means ok to kill…

Right?
Because that’s exactly how pro-death arguments go, “it’s ok to abort a developed fetus because it’s not like us.”

There’s a reason they don’t sell “Happy abortion” cards.

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Avatar of Sean
Sean (@season)1 year, 2 months ago ago

@manimal, You are forgetting the auxiliary purposes of sex: Taking advantage of girls, taking advantage of boys, getting jobs, establishing dominance without attaining merit, showing daddy how grown up you are and finally… winning.

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Avatar of Ray Butler
Ray Butler (@trek79)1 year, 2 months ago ago

They say “Pro-choice” but I question a persons ability to make reasonable choices if they had made the choice to risk unwanted pregnancy to begin with.
Any decent Doctor knows when it is safe enough for the procedure and when it is too late to risk, that window is very early term, at that point it is little more than an assisted menstruation.
Most people do not really know the science behind it, they envision some baby, but the reality is it is little more than a cell cluster that hasn’t even begun to take on any fetal form. You are not talking about higher brain functions, basically even the brain-stem hasn’t even formed.
On one hand you have irresponsible behavior, on the other hand people are over-humanizing the embryo, both sides of the argument seem like they are lacking maturity.

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Avatar of Bianca A
Bianca A (@biancavila)1 year, 2 months ago ago

Why don’t we stop trying to argue whether or not it’s murder and, instead, start trying to do everything we can to prevent it as much as possible?

For women who are raped, provide her with support groups and counseling. For teens who are become pregnant and do not feel ready to have a baby, provide a support group for them so they can cope. For people who are pursuing their career by attending a university full time, create a system to give them some leeway. Stop trying to push your views on others. Start doing something to stop it.

Because I think we can all agree on one thing: regardless of whether or not we believe abortion to be murder, we do not wish for abortion to even happen.

Create a world for the unborn babies. After all, they are the future, aren’t they?

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Anonymous (@)1 year, 2 months ago ago

If you’d rather not it goes something like this;
“The conservative right people are usually pro-life, meanwhile they heavily agree on wars, soldiers, and military funding. While the liberal left are heavily pro-choice, but bash war mongering and killing abroad.”

Abortion is killing a fetus. Thats what it is. You are killing a fetus. You are denying life to a possible person, a human being, before any experience of the external world can be acquired. That is all it is.

Its not right, its not wrong. The universe continues on as it was, and apparently so do we. However, if you do take a stance on this subject, you have to realize that, along with all political and philosophical ‘flag-waving’ you are going to have to draw subjective / imaginary / abstract lines in reality in what you believe is right & wrong, and that is where I see the problems ensue.

Drawing arbitrary lines in reality is something one must seriously consider as being ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. Not the issue within which the lines are drawn – the drawing of the lines themselves.

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Avatar of Ray Butler
Ray Butler (@trek79)1 year, 2 months ago ago

Society, government and industry/commerce is consistently failing in providing ALL humans with reasonable opportunities in life, what exactly is “reasonable opportunities” is the big question. Some believe the opportunity to be born is reasonable, fight with passion for that goal, but don’t continue to fight for reasonable opportunities for all beyond that.
That is hypocrisy, we have the right to be born but we do not have the right to live? Work on providing reasonable opportunities in life before you spend all your passion fighting to add more people to an inadequate system. Prioritize, is all I’m saying.

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Avatar of Hopalong
Hopalong (@hopalongmcgurk)1 year, 2 months ago ago

@manimal, “Sex only has one purpose, reproduction. That’s all it’s for. If you do it for some other reason, and really don’t want a child, then you’re a complete idiot. There’s always a possibility of pregnancy, because that’s what sex is for.
If you’re not prepared for that, don’t have sex.”

This argument is beyond unrealistic. People are idiots if they have sex for any reason other than to make a child? So are you saying that you’re a virgin or that you’re a father? Or are you saying that you’re an idiot, like almost everyone ever? Desire is an animal instinct within all of us, one that’s nearly impossible to resist when you’re with someone where there’s mutual attraction. You can call if folly, but it’s human nature.

And should babies really be considered the consequence of sex? A punishment for the irresponsible? Isn’t that reducing their lives (that you seem to be so concerned about) to a pretty miniscule level? Sort of like using them to prove a point instead actually caring about what happens to them after their born.

Also, my boyfriend used to work with a guy who likes to get around. He gets tested for STDs monthly, always wears a condom, and has a separate bank account with over a thousand dollars in it just in case he accidentally does get someone pregnant. Feel free to judge him, it’s the easiest thing in the world to do, but I think calling him unprepared would be an inaccurate description.

“Yeah, a fetus is a human being, not just a cluster of cells. It’s defenseless and never did anything to anyone. Our neighbours did. Everyone did, every grown person is guilty. The fetus is innocent.”

This doesn’t even make sense to me. What does innocence have to do with anything? Is that what you’re trying to save, innocence? Is that what gives a life value? What a relative, transitory thing. No wonder people stop caring what happens to the babies once they’re born. It’s all about the idea of something they care about and not about saving an actual person. If it is a person you’re trying to save, then the loss of innocence is going to be a part of that. Innocence is not something that can be preserved. Babies grow up to be adults that will make choices you won’t agree with. They’ll probably have sex for fun, too. Maybe even have abortions of their own. And if abortion is illegal, maybe they’ll die having an illegal one, like so many women have before them. But you’ll have stopped caring by that point, I’m sure. Maybe you’d even say all the women who’ve died having illegal abortions deserved that, too. Just like they deserved to get pregnant for their irresponsibility in the first place.

“Well, so do old people. So let’s abort them too. Like in the old days, just push them off a cliff or something. Oh and the mentally handicapped, and the homeless, and the starving people of poor nations. Let’s just kill em all, because after all they’re just cell clusters that are not like us. And not like us means ok to kill…”

A more accurate comparison would be this: An elderly or mentally handicapped individual is dying because they need a kidney transplant. Should you be forced to give them your kidney in order for them to survive? Should you be called a murderer if you refuse? What if they need more than a kidney? What if they need to be attached to you and feed off of your nutrients for almost a year? Should you be obligated to support them? What if it was your own child, now a grown adult? Maybe you would support them anyway, but should you be FORCED to? How much of yourself should you have to sacrifice and for how long? Where should the line be drawn?

Honestly, this post was surprising to me coming from you, because I distinctly remember another post you made about the Boston massacre. You questioned the idea of it being a tragedy when a human life ends. So how does that not contradict this? And you basically asked if their lives were such a great loss because they were probably people that would have been disliked anyway. Basically, the only lives that matter are the ones who haven’t even been born yet.

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Avatar of ELI var namnet
ELI var namnet (@manimal)1 year, 2 months ago ago

@hopalongmcgurk, “This argument is beyond unrealistic. People are idiots if they have sex for any reason other than to make a child?”

They sure are.
It’s as realistic as it gets.

“So are you saying that you’re a virgin or that you’re a father? Or are you saying that you’re an idiot, like almost everyone ever?”

Pretty sure I’m a father, and an idiot like the rest.

“Desire is an animal instinct within all of us, one that’s nearly impossible to resist when you’re with someone where there’s mutual attraction. You can call if folly, but it’s human nature.”

Near impossible to resist. Haha, good one. If you really think that’s true, you must have an unusually weak mine.
I have a clinical diagnose stating that I’m a sex addict, and even I don’t find it too hard to resist. People resist that urge all the time.
Human nature my ass, human nature is being conscious and making choices.

“And should babies really be considered the consequence of sex?”

Well yeah, you have sex and a baby comes out. That’s what sex is for. It’s not a matter of considering, it’s a solid fact.

“A punishment for the irresponsible? Isn’t that reducing their lives (that you seem to be so concerned about) to a pretty miniscule level?”

Those are your words, not mine. Of course it’s not a punishment, it’s a really fucking cool thing.

“Sort of like using them to prove a point instead actually caring about what happens to them after their born.”

That might be the case with those American conservatives, but there’s a whole world out there yknow. There’s a world outside the media, a world outside your borders. A world where it’s not black and white.
One person is against abortion and doesn’t care about what happens after death, and you assume that all the people who don’t like happy-go-lucky slaughter of unborn babies are the same way.
Or you’re just regurgitating the same old catchphrase that all the other typical pro-death followers have been slinging ever since Carlin said it.

“Feel free to judge him, it’s the easiest thing in the world to do, but I think calling him unprepared would be an inaccurate description.”

Why would I judge him? I don’t judge.
And if you’d actually read the post you’re replying to, you’d have understood that I encourage the people who are prepared.
I don’t see the point of condoms though, then you might as well go home and fuck a balloon or a rubber glove.

“It’s all about the idea of something they care about and not about saving an actual person”

Again you’re making stuff up. Pulling it out of thin air.
The actual person is what I want to save, not a concept. Not everyone is an American stereotype, widen your views.
The kid deserves a fucking chance. Grown people have had their chances, and the majority have wasted theirs. The unborn haven’t.

“Babies grow up to be adults that will make choices you won’t agree with.”

Oh wow, mind blown. Cuz it’s not like I thought before taking a stance or anything….

Why would I mind that they do stuff I don’t like? I want freedom, their choices are theirs to make, it’s none of my business.
I respect people, I don’t have a problem with disagreements. That’s the difference.

“But you’ll have stopped caring by that point, I’m sure.”

More unfounded assumptions. What you trying to get out of this shit?
A bunch of people stop caring, but then again, a kid that’s old enough to make it on her own needs no care.
Personally I do care, but not about adults.

“Maybe you’d even say all the women who’ve died having illegal abortions deserved that, too. Just like they deserved to get pregnant for their irresponsibility in the first place.”

Well, let’s see now. First you choose to have reckless sex with someone unreliable. Then you choose to wait until it’s too late to trigger a miscarriage. Then you choose to not keep the baby. Then you choose to go to a shady “doctor” and have him slice you open.

You don’t see what’s happening there? It’s all a bunch of choices, choices have consequences. If you take action, you desere the outcome. Always.

“A more accurate comparison would be this: [...]”

There’s nothing accurate about that comparison.
Not giving that dying person the help they “need” is not murder, because you’re not doing anything. You don’t kill them, you don’t do anything to them. And they got themselves into that misery, and they’ve had their chance at life and wasted it. They’ve had their good times.

Severing something with a knife to kill it, yeah that’s intentional killing. Murder. They fetus didn’t bring the abortion upon herself, she’s murdered in cold blood with no way to defend. She never had a chance, never got to live, never got to enjoy the good times.

How on earth can you think your comparison is even the least bit accurate?
One case is letting nature have its way, letting the old person deal with the consequences of her actions, you have no part in it.
The other case is going out of your way to slaughter an unborn, your own child, to avoid facing the consequences of your actions.

” You questioned the idea of it being a tragedy when a human life ends. So how does that not contradict this?”

Well first of all, there’s a huge difference between questioning an opinion, and stating values.
Me writing something does not mean I’m expressing my personal values or opinions. It’s called discussion.
Where have you been?

Second, there’s no contradiction even if both views were mine. Think of it like this, you’ve got a fruit bowl full of rotting fruit. They’re no good to you, they’re attracting vermin, stinking up the place, touching them could make you sick, and so on.
Then there’s a free delivery of fresh fruit at your doorstep.

Now your way would be to stomp the shit out of that fresh fruit and throw it in the garbage, and try your best to keep the rotten fruit from dissolving or being eaten up by the vermin.

My way is to throw the old shit in the trash, clean the bowl, and fill it with the fresh new batch which hopefully and highly probably will be much better than the last one.

In order for new great things to be, first we must clear some space for them, and if that mean some corrupt old shit has to go that’s an added bonus.

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Avatar of Kidd
Kidd (@kidd)1 year, 2 months ago ago

@biancavila, It’s cool that you say that. I’m looking through these old posts and getting annoyed because people aren’t sharing the same views as I.

But, pffft. I get to yours and I feel silly. Kudos to you, seriously. Well said.

We’re focusing on the wrong argument.

We should start in schools, IMO, where sex ed. is more often than not taught with a preachy overtone or incorrectly overall. It such schools, teen pregnancy is higher, lol. If we teach kids honestly and objectively they’ll make their own personal and educated choices.

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Avatar of
Anonymous (@)1 year, 2 months ago ago

The argument that sex is only for reproduction isn’t very valid, for
1) it implies that pleasure is not meaningful
and
2) it implies that nature has intent

#2 you could argue is true, but I am in the field that strongly believes that nature has no intent whatsoever, and therefore sex, and any other evolutionary activity cannot inherently be or exist for some sole reason.

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Avatar of Hopalong
Hopalong (@hopalongmcgurk)1 year, 2 months ago ago

@manimal, “They sure are. It’s as realistic as it gets.”

Not in this world, it’s not. Sex causes babies and orgasms, and humans are not the only animal to do it solely for the latter.

“Near impossible to resist. Haha, good one. If you really think that’s true, you must have an unusually weak mine. I have a clinical diagnose stating that I’m a sex addict, and even I don’t find it too hard to resist. People resist that urge all the time. Human nature my ass, human nature is being conscious and making choices.”

Good for you. I’m twenty-three and have only had sex with one person. When I say impossible to resist, I’m not talking about having to fuck everything that moves or anything relating to sex addiction. I’m talking about the idea of going your entire life only having sex for reproductive means and never for pleasure. For animals that possess lust and desire, that’s just about impossible.

“Well yeah, you have sex and a baby comes out. That’s what sex is for. It’s not a matter of considering, it’s a solid fact.”

Again, with the defining of what sex is for. If humans were computers, maybe that’d be the case. But we’ve evolved way beyond living in some black and white basic survival mode where all of our actions are to further along our species. What sex is for now is a matter of opinion, not fact.

“Those are your words, not mine. Of course it’s not a punishment, it’s a really fucking cool thing.”

Unless you don’t want to have the baby and someone’s forcing you to carry it anyway. That’s not cool.

“That might be the case with those American conservatives, but there’s a whole world out there yknow… Or you’re just regurgitating the same old catchphrase that all the other typical pro-death followers have been slinging ever since Carlin said it.”

So I’m wrong to think that those who are anti-choice don’t care about what happens to babies after they’re born and grow up, but you’re right to think that every person who’s pro-choice is happy-go-lucky about it?

I think abortion is a sad and tricky subject, certainly not happy for anyone involved. And absolutely nobody in that situation is lucky. But I also realize that it’s a practice as old as human civilization itself. In fact, other animals have been known to induce abortions themselves. My point is that making abortion illegal, which is the solution most anti-choicers offer, will not work and never has. It only puts the mother’s life at risk because she can only resort to illegal means and that, I think, is much sadder.

“The actual person is what I want to save, not a concept. Not everyone is an American stereotype, widen your views. The kid deserves a fucking chance. Grown people have had their chances, and the majority have wasted theirs. The unborn haven’t.”

This is exactly what I mean when I say you only care about the idea of someone and not the actual person. It’s that chance that you care about. But if it wastes it’s chances or makes mistakes, as you’ve already said most people tend to do, then too bad, now you’ve stopped caring. If it grows up to have an abortion, you’ve definitely stopped caring. Now they can die with that fetus and it’s only the fetus you’ll mourn because it hasn’t made any mistakes yet.

“Why would I mind that they do stuff I don’t like? I want freedom, their choices are theirs to make, it’s none of my business. I respect people, I don’t have a problem with disagreements. That’s the difference.”

Okay, so maybe you’re anti-choice but don’t actually think abortion should be made illegal because you’re pro-freedom. I can respect that, too.

“A bunch of people stop caring, but then again, a kid that’s old enough to make it on her own needs no care. Personally I do care, but not about adults.”

How are my assumptions unfounded when you’re telling me right now that you don’t care about adults and my exact assumption was that you stop caring about these babies once they’ve grown into adults? That’s the point I was talking about. By the time they’ve grown up into people that you can look down on as wasted and mistake-ridden, you don’t care about them anymore. It’s only a small portion of their lives that you’re concerned about: the very beginning.

“Well, let’s see now. First you choose to have reckless sex with someone unreliable. Then you choose to wait until it’s too late to trigger a miscarriage. Then you choose to not keep the baby. Then you choose to go to a shady “doctor” and have him slice you open. You don’t see what’s happening there? It’s all a bunch of choices, choices have consequences. If you take action, you desere the outcome. Always.”

First of all, you’re assuming every woman who has ever had an abortion had sex with someone unreliable? Some married women have been known to get abortions. And are you saying you’re okay with triggering miscarriages but not abortion? Maybe I’m misunderstanding this and need you to clarify it for me. It also seems like you’re assuming it can be that easily done. But, sometimes, it just doesn’t work for people. Abortion is almost always a last resort. And it’s a very desperate woman that puts herself at risk that way.

Now, as you’ve said, you don’t care about adults and women who die from illegal abortions deserve the consequences of those actions. That’s because you only seem care about the potential of life and what someone could do with it, while I care about the lives of actual people. I don’t think any woman deserves to die for having an abortion and death does not have to be a consequence of abortion so long as it remains legal. This is also why I think that “pro-death” is an inaccurate description for me and “pro-life” is an inaccurate description for you.

“There’s nothing accurate about that comparison… The other case is going out of your way to slaughter an unborn, your own child, to avoid facing the consequences of your actions.”

I don’t know why you brought up the comparison of old and mentally handicapped people if you’re now saying it’s too far off. I thought the same thing, but I do think my scenario is closer to accurate than yours. The idea is that neither the old people, handicapped people, or a fetus can survive without hosting off of your body in a parasitic fashion. They can’t live without using your body to do so and you’re killing both by not allowing that to happen. But only one matters to you because it hasn’t lived to be miserable and wasted yet. Once that time comes for them, you’ve already moved onto the next fetus to worry about.

“Second, there’s no contradiction even if both views were mine. Think of it like this…”

So, basically what you’re saying with this analogy is that, within this last month, you may have drastically changed your opinion about the value of life while I am incapable of ever changing my mind about anything.

Now that’s a good example of an assumption based on absolutely nothing. I can also change my mind about things; I have before and likely will again. I have no problem with other people changing their minds, either, or playing devil’s advocate, but also value consistency. It’s something I think today’s society lacks with it’s short attention span. My memory is not so short.

Let me leave you with this: By far the most religious person I’ve ever known in my life, who told me in our last real conversation that I’m going to hell because I don’t accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior, once came to me with a problem that he needed to talk about. He surprised the hell out of me by saying the last thing I ever expected him to say: he had premarital sex with his girlfriend (who was more religious than he was), she got pregnant, and she had an abortion. These are two people who were, and most likely still claim to be, incredibly “pro-life.” You really can’t understand the shock I felt learning this unless you knew them yourself. But here’s the point I’m getting at: it doesn’t matter what anyone’s preconceived notions are about abortion. When you’re actually in that situation and faced with that choice, you really can’t know what you’re going to decide. Because, like you said yourself, people change their minds. So even the most extreme anti-choice person out there is as likely to have an abortion as an extremely pro-choice person is to decide against it. Either way, they should be free and safe to make whichever decision that feels right to them.

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Avatar of ELI var namnet
ELI var namnet (@manimal)1 year, 2 months ago ago

@hopalongmcgurk, Then you don’t know what realistic means. Sex only has one purpose, procreation. You can do it for fun or whatever but that’s not its purpose.

“I’m twenty-three and have only had sex with one person. When I say impossible to resist, I’m not talking about having to fuck everything that moves or anything relating to sex addiction. I’m talking about the idea of going your entire life only having sex for reproductive means and never for pleasure.”

-Only one person, eh? Then clearly you’ve resisted many times.
Going your whole life without recreational sex is no big deal, there’s lots of people who do that. There’s a lot who don’t have sex at all, not even for procreation. And a lot of those don’t even masturbate.

So clearly it’s very, very far from impossible.

“If humans were computers, maybe that’d be the case. But we’ve evolved way beyond living in some black and white basic survival mode where all of our actions are to further along our species.”

So you’re anti-science too I see. We haven’t evolved like that at all, genetically we’re still the same as we were back in the paleolithic days. Nothing’s changed.

We’re not computers, we’re biological organisms. Every ability serves a survival function, that’s all there’s to it. You can use it for other stuff, but that’s not what it’s for.
That’s a matter of FACT, not opinion.

You are just an animal, you are not above nature, deal with it.

“Unless you don’t want to have the baby and someone’s forcing you to carry it anyway. That’s not cool.”

That only applies to rape. If you agreed to sex, you agreed to possible pregnancy. If that deal isn’t good enough for you, DON’T FUCK.
Or get sterilized and keep fucking.

“So I’m wrong to think that those who are anti-choice don’t care about what happens to babies after they’re born and grow up, but you’re right to think that every person who’s pro-choice is happy-go-lucky about it?”

Nice try… but it doesn’t work. A stupid statement gets countered with the opposite stupid statement, as an attempt to show the first poster how stupid his enmity profile is.

Keep that in mind.

But yeah, there’s a lot of people who are happy-go-lucky about it. Disgusting.

“But I also realize that it’s a practice as old as human civilization itself. In fact, other animals have been known to induce abortions themselves. My point is that making abortion illegal, which is the solution most anti-choicers offer, will not work and never has. It only puts the mother’s life at risk because she can only resort to illegal means and that, I think, is much sadder.”

-Yeah, humans have done it for a long time. Some animals do it, but how is that a solid argument?
I mean, after all, several feline and rodent mothers kill their babies when there’s a new male in town that they want to fuck. Should that be legal too?
After all, it’s just a kid, it’s not smart like us so it’s ok to kill it… right?

Yeah, having them go to shady “doctors” is worse, but why should we even have this “safety net” in the first place? It technically just encourages irresponsibility and decadence.
It’s the 21st century, one would think that humans were smart enough to learn from the mistakes that have been repeated millions of times….
But, clearly, that is not the case. Tragic.

And, yknow, if she’s willing to risk her life just to kill her fetus… then that’s pretty messed up. She must really hate the unborn.
And how is it such a tragedy if a woman dies, but not if a baby dies? A life is a life, right?

Not only that, but even when abortion is legal, women still go to the illegal clinics because they waited too long (meaning there’s an actual developed baby in there.)

” But if it wastes it’s chances or makes mistakes, as you’ve already said most people tend to do, then too bad, now you’ve stopped caring. If it grows up to have an abortion, you’ve definitely stopped caring. Now they can die with that fetus and it’s only the fetus you’ll mourn because it hasn’t made any mistakes yet.”

-A straw man? For me? YAY!!!
You’re making shit up, keep it together mate.

Where did I say I stop caring if they make a mistake? I didn’t. Where did I say the chance is all I care about? I didn’t. Where did I say I only care about feti? I didn’t.

How do you think you can discuss things at an adult level if you keep demonizing those who have the opposite stance?
Keep it real, mate.

I don’t care about adults because adults don’t need any care.

Moving on…

“Okay, so maybe you’re anti-choice but don’t actually think abortion should be made illegal because you’re pro-freedom. I can respect that, too.”

Anti-choice? Come on, you know that’s a ridiculous term.

But ok, I’ll play your game. Let’s say I order something online, but when the ship or truck starts hauling that stuff to my location I hijack it and smash the goods. See, I really want the right to do that, and the appropriate aid. If I do it illegally that’s a huge risk, I could die or end up in jail.

If you don’t agree with letting me do that, you are anti-choice… and a huge hypocrite.

And you know what? My example is about material stuff, nothing dies. Is it better when something dies?
So how is Pro-death not accurate?

“They can’t live without using your body to do so and you’re killing both by not allowing that to happen. But only one matters to you because it hasn’t lived to be miserable and wasted yet. Once that time comes for them, you’ve already moved onto the next fetus to worry about.”

-Do you even read before you react?

Letting the old fart die is not an action, you’re not interferring or doing anything to them, just letting them be. It’s not killing.
The fetus keeps living unless you kill it, and that takes a lot of effort and it’s costly too.

If you’re gonna put words in someone’s mouth, at least make them a little relevant and related to what the person is saying.
The things you claim about me are unfounded and only exist in your mind.

Keep it real.

“First of all, you’re assuming every woman who has ever had an abortion had sex with someone unreliable? Some married women have been known to get abortions. And are you saying you’re okay with triggering miscarriages but not abortion?”

-Why would I assume something that’s a fact? That would be pointless. If the woman doesn’t want to get pregnant and her man still knocks her up, then of fucking course he’s unreliable.

What does marriage have to do with anything? Nothing.

If you trigger a miscarriage before the fetus develops then why would there be a problem? Hell, a lot of pregnancies end before they even start. Nothing is killed, just two cells go to waste. It’s no rocket science, there’s many ways to eject that stuff. Tried and true.

If you make choices, you gotta take the consequences. If you have sex and an unwanted pregancy happens, deal with it, it’s your own damn fault. If you have someone cut you open and you die, that’s your own damn fault too.

“Hurr durr, people who jump from the roof of a 20 story building don’t deserve to die. People who light themselves on fire don’t deserve to die.
Derp.”

Of course they fucking do. Your choice, your consequences, your responsibility. Nobody else’s.

“So, basically what you’re saying with this analogy is that, within this last month, you may have drastically changed your opinion about the value of life while I am incapable of ever changing my mind about anything.”

-Nope. The contradiction or change is made up by you, probably because you didn’t try to understand what I was saying.
Having fun?

You don’t know what it’s like to live in an abortion-liberal country. If you did, I’m pretty sure you’d change your mind. Just like western commies do when they visit an actual commie nation and see what it’s really like.

We’ve got lots of those bitches here, having abortions left and right. And then when they find out they can’t have kids anymore they think they deserve pity, and they think they deserve surrogates, and worst of all they think the tax payers should pay for it.
I love it when that shit happens, maybe people will finally learn a lesson.

There’s women practically forcing men to knock them up, then they change their minds and get it aborted, and if the boy had changed his mind he has no right to intervene, and then the law says he has to pay half the price…
That’s what happened to me. Could have been you.
The fetus could have been you too, ever think of that?

That little boy or girl would have been 4 now… I remember being 4, it was amazing. I have a niece who’s 4 years old, every time I see her I start thinking what if they had exterminated her too? If my child hadn’t been murdered, they could have played together.
But now he or she is dead.

Could have been me, could have been you. How would you feel if your mother hired an assassin to kill you?
Where is the love?

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Avatar of Hopalong
Hopalong (@hopalongmcgurk)1 year, 2 months ago ago

“Only one person, eh? Then clearly you’ve resisted many times… So clearly it’s very, very far from impossible.”
—You’re focusing a minority of people out of billions and holding the rest of the world to those standards which you’ve admitted you couldn’t even meet yourself. Again, you’re being unrealistic.

“So you’re anti-science too I see… You are just an animal, you are not above nature, deal with it.”
—I’m not anti-science, you’re just anti-psychology. Clearly you know nothing about animal behavior. Yes, humans are animals. And we’re the kind of animals that like to have sex for pleasure. We always will be. There’s nothing unnatural about that and it will never change.

“That only applies to rape. If you agreed to sex, you agreed to possible pregnancy. If that deal isn’t good enough for you, DON’T FUCK. Or get sterilized and keep fucking.”
—People wait to have children until they want to have children. They don’t wait to have sex until they want to have children. That’s just how it is. You can talk like this, but you sound like someone in deep denial.

And now this raises another question: if you consider yourself to be ‘pro-life,’ how could you be okay with abortion in the case of rape? If we’re talking about babies here, and you think we are, then we’re still talking about murder, rape or no rape.

“Nice try… but it doesn’t work. A stupid statement gets countered with the opposite stupid statement, as an attempt to show the first poster how stupid his enmity profile is. Keep that in mind.”
—So long as you’re admitting that you’re statement was stupid. You paint a generalized, overly-dramatic portrait of evil people happily and heartlessly committing wittle baby genocide, then say I’m the one demonizing people with opposite stances.

“…several feline and rodent mothers kill their babies when there’s a new male in town that they want to fuck. Should that be legal too? After all, it’s just a kid, it’s not smart like us so it’s ok to kill it… right?”
—These little scenarios are ridiculous. We’re not talking about children or babies. We’re talking about fetuses that can only survive by living inside of a person’s body. No other examples apply.

“Yeah, having them go to shady “doctors” is worse, but why should we even have this “safety net” in the first place? It technically just encourages irresponsibility and decadence. It’s the 21st century, one would think that humans were smart enough to learn from the mistakes that have been repeated millions of times…. But, clearly, that is not the case. Tragic.”
—Abortion clinics encourage people to have abortions as much as drug rehabilitation centers encourage people to do drugs. What it really does is provide safe healthcare for people who need it. Denying that from them would only cause them harm. Maybe one should stop dreaming about some idealistic fantasy-land and come back down to planet Earth.

“And, yknow, if she’s willing to risk her life just to kill her fetus… then that’s pretty messed up. She must really hate the unborn.”
—Or she’s really scared and desperate. That’s often the case. But you can call it hate if that helps perpetuate the image you need to sustain of all women who have abortions being cold-hearted, disgusting bitches.

“And how is it such a tragedy if a woman dies, but not if a baby dies? A life is a life, right?”
—It would be two lives, though, wouldn’t it? If you think that a fetus is a baby and it dies when a woman has an abortion, then the woman dying means there’s two deaths.

“Not only that, but even when abortion is legal, women still go to the illegal clinics because they waited too long (meaning there’s an actual developed baby in there.)”
—I’m sure that’s better regulated now, though, than it would be if abortion were completely illegal. Making abortion completely illegal is obviously not going to have any effect on the women you’re talking about.

“A straw man? For me? YAY!!! You’re making shit up, keep it together mate… I don’t care about adults because adults don’t need any care.”
—I say you don’t care about adults and you say, ‘Wrong. I don’t care about adults.’ Straw man my ass. I changed your example about old and handicapped people to make them as dependent as a fetus and you took the creative license to add that they got themselves into that misery, say it’s their own fault they got ill or injured in this unspecified way that would make them temporarily co-dependent, and say they wasted their chances in life and already had their good times. Very interesting to see how you made these characters come to life in your very cynical, limited imagination. Then, right after that, you said it’s the fetuses that are murdered in cold blood (because there was nothing cold about your attitude towards those “old farts” and the physically handicapped–the kind of adults that actually do need care). You explain why the fetuses are more important to you and take higher precedence over these other people: because they never had their chances (and there it is!) at life or had their good times. You even say they never got to live, which actually contradicts the entire notion that abortion is murder because you can’t kill something that was never alive (unless, when you said that, it was you just making discussion and not expressing your personal values).

Everything else you’ve said and keep saying goes by this same tune. Something that never got to live–was never alive, only had the chance to be so–is worth protecting and defending. Everyone else can fend for itself and, if they can’t, too bad, it’s their own fault. You care about babies being born, but you don’t care what happens to them after they’re grown. You can save a sentence or two for denying that, but everything else you write screams the opposite.

“Anti-choice? Come on, you know that’s a ridiculous term.”
—For the millionth time, making abortion illegal doesn’t stop women from having them. You are not ‘pro-life’ just because you think it should be illegal. You just think that women should have to risk their lives if they want to have one. There’s nothing pro-life about an attitude like that.

“But ok, I’ll play your game…. So how is Pro-death not accurate?”
—This example is stupid and far-fetched. For one thing, the woman IS the truck, she’s the one physically carrying the package, the fetus is the package but having sex doesn’t mean that she ordered it, no more than ordering it by having sex means that it’s going to be sent to her.

And if having an illegal abortion is crashing the truck, then having a legal one is safely pulling over and carefully removing it. You would rather the scenario where they crash while I prefer the latter. So no, this example makes you sound like you’re the one who’s pro-death.

“Why would I assume something that’s a fact? That would be pointless. If the woman doesn’t want to get pregnant and her man still knocks her up, then of fucking course he’s unreliable.”
—Sometimes condoms break or the pill doesn’t work. There’s not always someone to blame. It’s not always some woman getting carelessly knocked up by ‘her man.’ You should know better.

“If you trigger a miscarriage before the fetus develops then why would there be a problem? …Tried and true.”
—Abortion is, nine times out of ten, a person’s last resort. And, just like condoms, these methods aren’t guaranteed to keep you baby-proof. There’s always a small chance of failure.

“If you make choices, you gotta take the consequences. If you have sex and an unwanted pregancy happens, deal with it, it’s your own damn fault. If you have someone cut you open and you die, that’s your own damn fault too… Your choice, your consequences, your responsibility. Nobody else’s.”
—No one has to die from having an abortion so long as it remains legal. It would only result in death if people like you make it illegal again. Just admit it, you WANT for that to be a consequence.

“You don’t know what it’s like to live in an abortion-liberal country. If you did, I’m pretty sure you’d change your mind…”
—Your superiority complex is showing. You’re not making any points with this rant, you just sound bitter, whiney, and over-exaggerated. ‘Kids these days, blablabla…’

“That’s what happened to me. Could have been you. The fetus could have been you too, ever think of that?”
—Somebody cue the violins, he’s appealing to emotion.
If I was a fetus, I wouldn’t ever think of that because I wouldn’t be able to think. I would have no sense of self-awareness.

“That little boy or girl would have been 4 now… I remember being 4, it was amazing. I have a niece who’s 4 years old, every time I see her I start thinking what if they had exterminated her too? If my child hadn’t been murdered, they could have played together. But now he or she is dead.”
—What you’re mourning right now are dreams about something that never happened, not memories of something that did happen and is now lost. What was murdered was your hope, not an actual person. And you can mourn for that because it can be just as sad in its own way. But if you want to play at what if, then think of this: what if abortion was illegal, this woman had an illegal one, and she died with this fetus? Have you ever thought of that? Is that the way you’d prefer it?

“Could have been me, could have been you. How would you feel if your mother hired an assassin to kill you?”
—Bad, because I’m a self-aware adult with feelings.

“Where is the love?”
You tell me. You certainly don’t have it for old people, women who have had abortions, women who have died having abortions, people who are pro-choice (or ‘pro-death’), idiots who have sex, the physically handicapped or adults who are otherwise dependent… The more you talk, the more you add to this list.

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