An attempt to prove ‘God’ .. disprove if you like
I have been thinking that it can be done lately… if you want to disprove ‘God’ feel free.. It doesn’t matter to me exactly you think ‘God’ is (please share if you like tho).. but by ‘God’ I am referring to a creator that created us specifically.
My theory is that our existence is one of two things… Random, or rational… there are no other options…
Random being some scientific, mathematical inconsistent anomaly that placed us here on this earth, and able to take care of ourselves, not ‘God’… Rational being ‘God’ placed us here with deliberation (is that a word?)
To me, this reality makes it undeniable.. Our existence is full of rationality, mathematical consistences, analogies and paradoxes, where ‘God’s’ work can be viewed and reflected on ourselves..
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I think Matt’s argument comes down to whether the accumulated knowledge of man is ordered or chaotic.
Chaos theory is a field of study in applied mathematics, with applications in several disciplines including physics, economics, biology, and philosophy.
Finite dimensional linear systems are never chaotic; for a dynamical system to display chaotic behaviour it has to be either nonlinear, or infinite-dimensional.
Perhaps surprisingly, chaos may occur also in linear systems, provided they are infinite-dimensional. A theory of linear chaos is being developed in functional analysis, a branch of mathematical analysis.
It can be difficult to tell from data whether a physical or other observed process is random or chaotic, because in practice no time series consists of pure ‘signal.’ There will always be some form of corrupting noise, even if it is present as round-off or truncation error. Thus any real time series, even if mostly deterministic, will contain some randomness.
This shits crazy. I like to just click stuff on wikipedia and read things I can in no way understand. Imagine being able to figure mathematics in such a way.
It was said by the ancient Greek philosophers that there were primarily two things civilized people should understand and appreciate: Mathematics and music.
faith is overated.. you want answers just like me whether you believe in ‘god’ or not.. i’m assuming..
that made me laugh cause it is complex isn’t it! but the thing from a different viewpoint it’s prob very simple lol.. but i’m not admitting to be stupid.. lol
As an apatheist i am 10 times happier and appreciate our planet and existence for what it is so much more than when i was questioning god and all that… If you’re trying to “be enlightened” or something along those lines, i strongly suggest just entertaining the idea that god and religion are man-made concepts.
and for all the questions about the origin of the universe and what-not, consider the possibility that everything just… exists. there’s no reason why we’re here, so why question it?? the fact that we’re even alive and have some of the technology we’ve created is BEYOND mind-blowing when you realize no one created us. we just happened.
That’s why I was trying to say it is either a mathematical consitency or a mathematical anomoly, one of the 2 is the reason we are here.. I tried to prove my case against the anomly.. therefor creator.. if there is a flaw i that I haven’t seen it yet..
I don’t think you are closed off at all, just bouncing my ideas and I appreciate the feedback
I see. That makes sense. I just was confused about the distinction between a flaw and an anomaly as well as order opposed to no flaws.
Anomaly: something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected
How is an anomaly a mistake if it’s just a deviation from the norm?
What about all these anomalies they list here?
Is the word anomaly just a euphemism for ‘mistake in our thinking arising from limited awareness’?
This is from Conversations with God. I was obsessed with those books for the greater part of 2 years and I have always posted this explanation of God on the internet because it represents with great accuracy what I think God is. I’m assuming since I won’t make any money off this, Neale D. Walsh will be okay with it. I can never think about this enough actually…
In the begging, there was All That Is. Or what humanity has deemed God. All That Is existed in the Absolute Universe; no relativity. There was nothing else, for All That Is is All That Is, end of story. So All That Is could not experience itself because there was no contrast between what It was and what It was not. Because there was nothing else. This is in likeness to when you do not know you are short until you know tall. You can’t know hot without cold, and you can’t know good until you know bad, so on and so forth. Contrast.
So All That Is knew itself to be All That Is, but could not experience that. It knew conceptually what it was, but not experientially. This is in likeness to when you can know yourself to be kind, but cannot experience kindness until you DO something kind. So God knew Him/Herself to be utterly magnificent, but could not experience that because the very term “magnificent” is a relative term. So All That Is could not experience it’s magnificence until that which is NOT showed up.
But All That Is knew that it was…. All That Is, so it knew that it would never experience itself from a point outside of Itself. Such a point did not exist. But the All of Everything still wished to know itself experientially, so it realized that it would have to use a reference point from WITHIN. It reasoned that any portion of Itself would necessarily have to be less than whole, and that if It simply divided Itself into portions, each portion, being less than whole, could look back on itself and recognize its magnificence.
So it was that THREE elements then existed: that which is here, that which is there, and that which is neither here nor there, but which must exist for here and there to exist. The nothing which holds everything. The non-space which holds the space. The all which holds the parts.
This event was, incidentally, entirely consistent with that which is named The Big Bang Theory by human scientists. And as all the elements raced forth, TIME was created. For a thing was first here, and then it was there. And the period it took to get there was measurable. And so the RELATIVE UNIVERSE was created so that God could know Him/Herself experientially. There was only one way for the Creator to know Itself as the Creator, and that was to do just that: create.
So God gave the countless divisions of Himself/Herself the same power to create that He had as a whole. This is what religions mean when they say that we are “created in the image and likeness of God.” Not that we look alike physically, but that our essence is the same. Gods purpose in creating us was so that He could know Himself as God. There was no other way to do that, save through and as us.
All of our human mythologies and religions were created in order to try and understand this event of which the soul is deeply aware, but that the mind can barely comprehend.
But there was still a problem, the divided parts knew that they were parts of All That Is, and therefore still could not experience it. Again, the difference between knowing and experiencing something. The “spirits” or the “parts of the whole” longed to know themselves experientially (Just as God did). So God created a plan, the greatest plan of all the universe that would come into effect when spirit entered the physical universe (because physicality is the only was to know something experientially rather than conceptually).
This plan was that when we entered the physical universe (birth), we could know ourselves experientially, but first we had to come to know the OPPOSITE. The idea of contrast again. The ultimate logic that you cannot experience what you are until you encounter what you are not. This is the purpose of the theory of relativity and all physical life. It is by that which you are NOT that you yourself are defined. Have you not experienced in your own life instances where you saw or did things that you said “Ugh, I would never do that” or “I’ll never do that again”?
Of course, there is no way to not be What You Are. Because What You Are is just that: What You Are! So God planned into our lives the next best thing. We caused ourselves to FORGET Who We Really Are. Upon entering the physical universe, we relinquish our remembrance of ourselves. This allows us to CHOOSE Who We Are rather than just wake up in the castle, so to speak.
Our purpose is to remember Who We Are, which is a divine part of a divine whole, a member of the body. We cannot be that which we are not, because we are NOT THAT. We cannot not be a part of God, or God’s children, or inheritors of the kingdom (or whatever mythology you want to use), but we can forget, and then choose to remember. So our purpose is to re-member ourselves as a part of that which is whole, or Holy if you wish.
Stephen I would have to limit the internal rationality to your physical attributs, your viens, your arteries, your heart, digestive system.. the mind does in my head as well, but I don’t have anwers to that.. but it’s all purley rational… and your apple idea is to narrow.. but it doesn’t matter if for my arguement, my creator has a creator, it doesn’t change the concept that you have one, the apple could have been responsible for the blade of grass like the tree to the apple, so our creator has a creator, so what.. you don’t agree with it.. but i’m still floating…
Look at things like genetics, or evolution, or law of selection and all the ‘mathematical consistencies’ that have to line up in order for you to have life. If these principles did not have rational consistencies, you would have more inconsistencies in life, than consistencies.. So BECAUSE they are consistent, in other words are in a sense thinking, and determining a appropiate outcome, and not left to randomness (some variables are random i’ll acknowledge, but they are insignificant to the non-random variables).. there is a creator, a thinking force….
One of two ways we got here… incosisent mathematical equations, or consitent ones… I’ll shot holes in the inconsistent ones all day.. that is what you have to disprove
“Self-accused ignorance is a cop-out. ”
That’s true. It is. BUT what I put forward isn’t self accused ignorance. I’m dealing with this on the conceptual level he put forward. But yeah what you talk about here, direct experience of reality is literally where the body of work I’ve done lies.
“You can prove to yourself 100% that your subjective experience held truth”
Yeah 100% in fact it’s all you can know for sure.
“Linear discourse is limited because it relies on spotlight consciousness as a method of understanding reality. Conception of the infinite is impossible. Experience however”
I couldn’t agree more with you.
“John Cage wrote once in response to a request for a “manifesto of music”:”
Yeah I’ve read it. because I’m an amazing guy with a wealth of knowledge and I want you to know how great I am
“I think this is absolutely right and that it goes the same way for life and existence. It’s like a symphony: it’s beautiful and moving and so real, but nothing is accomplished by any part of it’s creation, experience, or conception. What else can we do but beat our drum?! ”
Nothing. However the difference between you and Matt is that you know you are beating your drum. Matt does not. You’ll notice I’m not telling he shouldn’t be beating his drum as it were. Simply pointing out that that is what he is doing, because he seems to think he is doing something more.
“Doesn’t matter about what, or how we understand it, or what we think, or truth, or anything except that it must go on and we must experience it. Everything changes and thats the only thing that never changes. Playing or hearing music is only as good as how open you are to it. We must in the same way, open ourselves to life. All it takes is to get with it! Fucking dance and don’t worry about truth or reality or God. But don’t not think about them because your experiences will give you exponentially greater awareness of yourself and that which you believe to be outside of yourself. It’s like a drumbeat, pulsing at you through you as you. God is that meaningless, pulsating drumbeat of very real and very true EXPERIENCE. Dance with your body, dance with your mind, dance with your soul. Don’t stop. In fact, get them going to the same beat of the same song with the same words. Then concepts like truth or belief will no longer necessary. There will only be unity.”
You’ve got a really annoying reverent tone, that aside. We’re pretty much on the same page about…Existence itself really. Which is good, not many like you around, don’t spoil the accessibility of what you have to offer with reverence. We’re just as much fools as this guy. You got a part to play you know that. It’d be great if you did it in a helpful way.
You may enjoy this
Wow this is amazing. In fact if you take a look at the argument.
The system is everything. The system is reality all of reality. In that case, how can there be anything outside of it. Outside of reality ? How can anything stand outside of reality and create it?
If something stands outside of reality, it is by it’s very nature. Unreal. Untrue. Nothing exists outside of all that exists, and reality is all that exists. It is possible for us to have a mental concept of what something that stands outside of reality would be like, but the concept is false. Nothing stands outside of reality.
Do you see what you’ve done here?
You have probably made one of the strongest cases I have ever seen for the non existence of God.
If he is outside reality. Then he is not real. ANd you just proved that God is outside reality, outside this system that gave rise to us.
Now Matt P.
Here is the big question.
Are you an honest man? Are you going to accept this deduction you have accidentally stumbled upon?
Or are you going to cling to your belief out of fear?
I should congratulate you.
This is AWESOME. You have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that according to this view of reality (which I must say seems 100% sound) not only does God NOT exist, but it is impossible for any God TO exist.
Matt, thanks for posting this question :) No one has ever been able to explain First Cause (or in other words, how something came from nothing). There is no logical explanation for a “beginning” of the Universe. Likewise, Science cannot explain the concept of infinity. The ONLY explanation I can rationally reach is that the Universe is infinite and God is the Universe. Namaste and Love and Light All…
I didn’t really read whole discussion, but will to later.. Just a quick question.
How to prove or disprove “GOD” when you don’t know what you’re trying to prove or disprove?
First of all, whole “GOD” thing is really foggy because every religion have a different “GOD” interpretation. So, basically you’ll have to prove or disprove every interpretation of “GOD”.
I’m not writing off a creator because I don’t understand it, I write it off because there is no evidence for it. In my opinion you draw false conclusions based on your inability to comprehend the way our universe works. Science attempts to use rationality and intellect to explain the phenomena around us, to try to justify the “order” that you see, instead of just writing it off as a creator. I’m not fully understanding this order that you’re seeing either, or these “random events.” I’m sure that looking through a straw these events seem random, and the outcomes seem mystifying, but if you were able to look at the larger picture you would see that they are simply one chain of events in an infinite spectrum of possibilities. But that’s an argument I’ve made before, which is why I said that this conversation has turned a circle.
Stephen, for all that ripping on me you did, removing me from your friends list, and just being ludicrous.. I’m still waiting for your retort..
Defend your posiition, as I have…. Or I guess since it’s just anything is possible, it could have been a bunch of pink unicorns that are non-beings, so wtf is there to talk about… for as much brains as you claim to have you seem like nothing but a know it all to me… get over yourself… you are not better than me.. and your arguement is garbage… i’m sure with all your genious you can think of better framework than that… where pink non-being unicorns could have done it… I didn’t keep up with the post professionally, it’s not my job, GET OVER IT.. I was having fun with it… but if pink unicorns is your answer after you run your fat mouth like that… go fuck yourself
If your going to blast a post… at least have some class about it