Basic Rights versus Earned Rights

2 years, 4 months ago

This is a strait up extension of conclusions I came to on this thread http://www.highexistence.com/topic/what-is-your-way-of-restoring-your-faith-in-humanity/
The thing is, I have no authority to define those myself and enforce them, I can help in the process though.
I know we all hate the idea of forcing anything on people, and you are absolutely right, I don’t object to that. But every philosophy you currently enjoy as a free right is being taken away from other people who deserve it.
This thread is not about forcing anything but only about coming to reasonable conclusions to provide everyone with the same freedom you enjoy. It is bad to enforce but it is empathic to try to find a way to appropriately justify everything our civilization enforces and ignores.

September 16, 2012 at 5:19 am

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Profile photo of  Anonymous (@) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

@trek79, I dont really see how your ramblings add up? are u a diagnosed schizophrenic? or just a trolll? or Both?

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

But you would have to be a complete asshole to turn someone away when they need medical assistance. That is one thing, give them mass produced medical care, the advantages of paying for your own medical insurance are still there, and you have your dignity for being self-sufficient. The fact is that even people who do work and contribute to society are not nessecarily getting a lot of money to throw around.

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

@tigerturban, It is a simple idea, you make every business a global susidiary and you balance the economies that they all become more productive. If an area can be improved with a little extra help so that it can become more efficient of profitable, then the entire economy benefits. What don’t you get?

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

Newer technologies can be implimented in areas that have out-dated industries, this reduces waste and pollution. The thing is, every nation can sign a duty pact to eliminate povert and focus this tool to do that. There is already the Kyoto protocol to consider, and reducing emissions are a duty of those signatories. This tool can repair their economies so they can meet their obligations easier.

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

You take the financial data from all the subsidiaries then you crunch the numbers by accountants. Then you get economists to figure out where the weak spots are and if or what we can do to improve the area. This would be a huge job, opportunities for work, but we would not be flying blind any more, we would have a genuine map of the function and then be able to manipulate it to our advantage.

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Profile photo of  Anonymous (@) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

@trek79, sophistry

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

@tigerturban, You are sure it is flawed? What do you just call ideas flawed without without explaination? Now that is sophistry.
Why am I a troll? Because I don’t want to be a bitch to the ignorant? Because I want people to take responsibility for their behaviour? That is why nothing gets done, because anyone with a brain thinks that it is the moral high ground to allow people the right to be dicks. That is sophistry.

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

Oh yeah, and I’m being a dick also? Why, because I hurt the feelings of the ignorant? That is sophistry, who else stands for the weak who are beaten around by people with no compassion? Not you obviously.

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

The key point is that you take the money you need to fix the world up, this not only includes implimenting greener technologies but providing people with the means to become self-sufficient. The fact is that people who are self-sufficient, therefore countries with a high self-sufficiency rate, have lower population growths. You do this and we have a manageable, even sustainable, global population growth.
Then we don’t feel like jack-asses for poverty mortality, which is completely disgraceful of us, but you have a larger consumer base, which equals profits across the board. So what, fossil fuel industries decline? That is the point, but you would think that all the money they made they could invest in the profit making areas of the future, you gotta know when to cash your chips and start betting on a different pony.
Sum total: We take money from business in order to fix the world to increase business, sustainable and justifiable business. Where is the problem in that? It is simply a business opportunity and you get all the bleeding hearts and radicals off your back (or they find a new cause).

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

Low population growth is directly related to self-sufficiency. You need to know how to be self-sufficient and that entails an education. Then once you are self-sufficient, coupled with your education, you develop self-determination, what you intend to do with your life. This all adds up to free-thinking, planning for the future, consideration for how hard you will have to work to provide a decent life for your kids. But then you may decide, why would I want kids at all? I’m having too much fun without that responsibility.

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

For people with empathy it is the humane thing to do, for people only interested in making money it is the logical thing to do, without it we lose it all. Yes it will cost at first, probably for some time, but once you start to get on top of things you start to see a marked improvement. Once all the issues are solved then it is a frign golden era.

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

Weigh up your options, climate change goes critical mass, things go to shit, run out of resources, things go to shit, global economies crash, things go to shit, corporations get the power they need to make things go to shit, we continue as we are with poverty and environmental havoc but otherwise things are just cheery. There is no other option, I have looked into everything, this is it, there is no other way short of some kind of paradigm shift of consciousness in all humanity that causes us to put away material greed and all our pettiness, that sounds great but don’t hold your breath.
This is it, this is your paradigm shift, it does not get any better or more practical. Any other ideas?

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

Here is an idea, the economic mapping is freely accessable on the internet and anyone in the world with accounting and/or economic expertise can study it and make sure nothing is overlooked or mismanaged, suggestions with reasoning can be offered by anyone as to how the system can be most efficient. Gives those in the organization every opportunity to approach every situation fully informed, and people can see where they mess up and how that happened.

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

There are also super computers, like the climate change modelling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_climate_model
That we can feed the economic mapping data into so as to run simulations. This is not a perfect thing but it can help iron out a lot of forseeable issues.

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

So really? People don’t think any more? Oh that’s right, they feel now.
Why does one person have to do all the work?

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Profile photo of  Anonymous (@) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

@trek79, you’re “subsidiary system” has no corresponding reality. It has no bearing in reality. Of course your computer management system is directly ripped off of the Zeitgiest movie…

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

@tigerturban, I’ve never seen the Zeitgeiest movie. But there is no convncing people of no vision.

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

@tigerturban, But I love how you just make statements with no reasoning to back it up, that is good stuff.

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Profile photo of  Anonymous (@) 2 years, 4 months ago ago
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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

@tigerturban, No seriously, make a valid point, not a presumption, and I will listen. Convince me and and I can delete this thread and my mind will be put at ease. Do me a favour.

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Profile photo of  Anonymous (@) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

@trek79, you’re too mentally deranged to have a real discussion with… http://i.imgur.com/xr16C.gif

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

@tigerturban, Fair enough, I will ask someone I respect.

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

But I get it, peoples egos don’t like it when their own brain can’t contribute anything relevant.

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Profile photo of TheSkaFish TheSkaFish M (@theskafish) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

@trek79, I think Basic Rights depend on the times we live in – for instance, a caveman could not ask for electricity as a basic right, because that did not exist in their day (as something humans could control and use). Nowadays, I’d say basic rights are freedom of thought, religion, and how you want to live (provided you are not hurting any other beings), and also freedom to get medical care, freedom to eat and drink enough to survive and think of ways to improve yourself, and nowadays, running water and electricity. I just don’t see any good reason that a person in the 21st century should be denied things that we’ve had in the first world for over a century. Also, I’d say internet access is at least a borderline basic right. I don’t mean to play games either, I mean, as a way to learn about the world and what you want to do with your life. You can also waste a lot of time on the internet, but still you can improve yourself a lot with it too, and if we want people to have upward mobility and increased usefulness to the community, if we want people to learn how to take care of themselves, the internet gives you a lot more ideas to choose from.

@tigerturban, “Of course your computer management system is directly ripped off of the Zeitgiest movie…” says the guy whose only contributions to this thread have been quotes by other people, and talking shit. Leave Ray alone, he’s a good dude. Not only that but so what if his idea is the same, no one would discuss a topic like this for personal glory, he’s not claiming to have invented a new way to live. All new ideas are just remixes of old ideas anyway.

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 4 months ago ago

Thanks @theskafish, everything I say is never completely original, I admit that, we just have our own spin on interpretation we have gleaned.

But this is not about forcing any business to do anything they do not want to do. So get that out of your head, this is not a suggestion of dictatorship. In business you make investments, some work out, others do not. This is a reasonable suggestion of how we can increase the consumer base, meaning greater profits to business, and eliminating the horrendous attributes of our world in the process.
Yes it costs, but as does every single investment one can gamble on, this is no different from a typical business opportunity, a calculated risk, but it is a risk we are taking on providing a kindness, that simply sweetens the deal.

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