I watched this doco a while ago and it really made me think differently about the way we look at animals.
I am wondering who else has seen this and what your opinions are. Is it over the top or truth. I guess it depends on where you live and how you consume your meat. I think everyone should watch something like this so people are making an informed decision. thoughts?
I cant get on the site from work so i cant post a link but google earthlings if you have never heard of it.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
Watching this now, and do think everyone should watch it. Unfortunately it requires a shitload of balls. It’s impossible to describe how hard it is to watch this, I’m 55mins in and still reeling and pausing. Never has watching a film been this hard. Never have I actually sobbed out loud, not even as a kid. I am not surprised this hasn’t gone viral: I hardly have the stomach for it. It’s even on HE, and only has two “loves”.
Isn’t it funny how the word “humane” comes from “human” and means something like “noble” and “kind”? Especially when it’s put into a context like this. We are so full of shit, we are.
I haven’t really had a problem with eating meat before, although I did figure that if I ever had to kill for meat, I wouldn’t. This is, as someone else has said, the final nail in the coffin. There’s no way I’m willing to be a part of this sort of atrocity anymore. We’ve created a hell on earth, just not for our own species, but for most others. Imagine if reincarnation is true…
Meat may not be murder strictly speaking, but the line goes here: if you preach about or believe in unconditional or global love, consider yourself a compassionate human being, consider yourself awakened/enlightened/conscious and so on, there’s no way you can eat meat and not be a complete and utter hypocrite. It feels horrible to see I’ve been this way. It’s so hard to see the reality for what it is. And I hate using that word, reality.
Still forty minutes to go. Not going to stop midway.
If you’re going to defend meat, watch the film first.
Then consider if you’d be eating meat at all if it required killing. Would you kill a man for his possessions?
Thank fuck the global economy is going to hell and the oil is disappearing. Even if that means our extinction.
tl;dr: bump for great Justice.
@Qualohuasca, I usually refrain from topics like this because commenting tends to spark a debate which I have zero interest in, but I want to comment here.
It probably only has 2 loves because people are too comfortable to challenge what they’re used to. Even the self proclaimed higher thinking individuals of high existence aren’t immune to cognitive dissonance. Once you really start looking into and thinking about this stuff, it’s impossible to go back.
In January 2006, Molly leapt a 5-foot-5-inch slaughterhouse gate at Mickey’s Packing Plant in Great Falls, raced through town with police and animal control on her heels, ran in front of a train, swam across the Missouri River and took three tranquilizer darts before finally being recaptured six hours later. She was spared from slaughter and dubbed the Unsinkable Molly B. “Animals do not ‘give’ their life to us, as the sugar-coated lie would have it. They struggle and fight to the last breath.”
I think/hope future generations will look back on meat eating with disgust. It’s ridiculous how good we all(myself included of course) are at compartmentalizing for the sake of continuing our comfortable and pleasurable habits. People are waking up though :)
Carbs are straight energy. Too much of the stuff and you start stacking way too much weight: http://www.usnews.com/news/50-ways-to-improve-your-life/articles/2007/12/17/health-reasons-to-cut-back-on-corn-consumption
Ugh…honestly, I could basically find scientific studies to back of every single rebuttal I have for what you’ve said, but I don’t feel like restating what has already been discussed in like 5 different threads spanning about 20+ pages of material on this site alone.
Plain and simple: there are dietary needs which strict vegans must face, especially when considering newcomers with low-income. Where a heavy meat eater might see unhealthy rises in cholesterol, a strict vegan will see unhealthy dips in vitamins which come plentifully in meats.
And honestly, the energy that goes in to those animals…is still going to go into those animals. Just because we stop killing them doesn’t mean they stop eating. All in all, moderation will maintain the earth just fine. Overdosing on one aspect or the other is a health risk, which again, I don’t feel like proving for the 1 millionth time.
Do whatever you feel like, but don’t come in here acting all high and mighty because YOU are the only one “doing the right thing.” It’s not like I seek to see you cave or anything, but this circular argument isn’t going to bend either of us anymore than we already have and at least I am willing to give you your lifestyle without grief.
All I can say is that I respect both of you regardless, and that is all I seek in return. If ones opinions are so strong that one cannot maintain a brotherhood with those who see through different eyes, there is still maturing to be done.
Believe me, I continue to expand my horizons and think about things on more than one occasion (basically constantly). Truth be told, it brings me to tears to see animal abuse, and I know I would crumble to a pile of dust were I to ever be face to face with the producers of the meat I have consumed. I have never hunted, I would only do it for nourishment (I really don’t even know how), and I no doubt would be so traumatized by experiencing the horrors that I have read about firsthand in factories that I would be forced into changing.
That said, I wonder would it be better to hunt on my own than to feed the industry. I imagine the answer is an obvious yes, but I don’t know that I have it in me. Oh, what a mess!
Learning to hunt seems better than funding the death given in factories, and I do firmly believe we are all part of a cycle that transcends our understanding, such that, just as the shark eats the fish, the lion pounces the gazelle, and the owl clinches the field mouse, we too are placed in a position to seek nourishment from animals (though not at the pace the western world has currently set…not even close).
I respect everyone regardless, and I would do the same if I ever became any level of vegetarian or vegan (people seem to define it in various ways anyhow)
@lozzjd, you are simply magnificent.
@freespirit, animals kill animals all the time. I have been talking about this plenty the past few days and I honestly believe that honoring the circle of like is what is required to be in touch with the way things should be.
I have no intention of having you believe anything, only you can shape that and I see no reason to try to push the immovable object.
That being said, I refer back to what I said: if we are no better than the animals we kill, then the fact that they kill in itself justifies our killing them, as well as our deaths and return to the earth and universe as energy.
@adamd, those staples are hardly enough to maintain a healthy lifestyle. A ton of starch is not going to do any favors for people without a ton of supplement, which is where the cost comes in. Starch = empty calories = weight gain (sometimes). “As much fruit and veggies as you can afford” would not be many, and certainly would drastically increase the food bill for a family currently living off of the meat industry. And also, you forget to mention the unnatural supplements that people would need to take to keep them from having deficiencies as a result of not eating the meat/meat products.
there is a nice discussion regarding exactly what overproducing of vegetation does to land, water, animals, and the environment. No matter where you look, the environment will subtract energy to sustain us.
My solution is not to fight over who wins this battle, because no one does. We coexist and give and take. When we die, our energy is returned to those from which it was borrowed, restarting the whole cycle over again. The real way to make a difference is to make sure that, whatever you consume, you do so with respect to the system (something we all forego all too often, myself included).
No one is better than anyone. We all just ARE. =)
The above discussion is what usually happens when people ask me why I am vegetarian or if I tell them why I think that buying and supporting the meat industry is harmful. Some people will look into the idea but only if they are ready and willing; the others will be indifferent all the way to hostile.
@lytning91 I agree with you. Being preachy over vegetarianism or veganism can be very tiring for other people and I wouldn’t do it unless provoked. I have found that I prefer being polite and eating meat when there is no alternative — I don’t turn down meat now when it has been already cooked and prepared for me by others, I just don’t buy and cook meat on my own.
What’s more, I can understand perfecty what you are saying about eating other beings being a natural procedure. In fact, while I was reading this thread yesterday, I had this flash of understanding. We westerners have a problem with death and cannot understand its place in the circle of things. If some vegans had their way, no animal would ever die. But, unfortunately or maybe not so much, that’s not how life works and we must embrace nature’s wisdom. That’s of course completely different than taking advantage of that and raising factory-farmed animals as little more than cogs in the machine. It’s just looking at the bigger picture a bit differently. I think cultures that paid their respects to their hunted animals got it right.
@freespirit, Lions don’t eat every other animal that they COULD live off of. Dogs as pets is a tradition sourced in hunting for food, and has LONG since excused them from being part of our prey. Again, a circle, in which some animals can act with one another in a state of mutualism. (Also, people do it cats in other parts of the world [though they are hardly fit to eat, what with the lack of actual size and substane])
Now, what did I say? I said, “The real way to make a difference is to make sure that, whatever you consume, you do so with respect to the system .” Does a sick, money-driven market reflect this? NO. NOT ONE BIT. I never justified the actions of the sick people who churn out animals like that.
Yes, I mentioned the bolt gun thing only to fact check you. That was so you could see truth outside of this discussion.
What I do think is fine is when someone seeks out their own food, preying on their meal as their prey preyed on another meal, as that prey preyed on yet another meal…this is the way of the world.
^^^there is the link since she is not able to post it atm. 90 minute video.
I assume this is about eating meats, though I have not watched it. I recently posted something entitled “Responsibility to be Vegetarian” (http://www.highexistence.com/topic/responsibility-to-be-vegetarian/)
In this thread I discussed a conversation I had with a friend about his recent decision to go completely Vegan, and how critical he became about those who choose to eat meat as a result. I had an overwhelming number of responses from people who believed that eating animals is natural and proven biologically to be something we are meant to do. If I am correct about the direction of this topic, I would appreciate you reading that thread of mine and then come back here and reflecting upon it.
@lytning91, You are right, carbs are energy. do you want energy? hahaha energy is beautiful eat more corn!
too much of what stuff and you will stack weight? carbs? nah man, if you gain weight on a primarily carb diet i will be astounded. i typically consume 3000+ cals a day with 80+% coming from carbs. you might think im fat, right? nope, im 6′ 150lbs, people consistently tell me im too skinny, i say damn, i must be eating too many carbs hah!
Just checking, did you read that link that you posted? Just in case, here is the final paragraph for you:
“Ultimately, it’s not that corn is inherently unhealthy or should be banished from the food system, says Aaron Woolf, director of the 2007 documentary King Corn, which highlights the dominance of corn in the agricultural system. “Corn is an astounding plant capable of producing an astounding amount of food from an astoundingly small space,” he says. “The problem is the scale at which we produce it.”"
Just to make sure we are on the same page, I do understand that refined foods are bad. That is why I always recommend a WHOLE FOODS, plant based diet. For you to tell me that corn is bad for me by citing Doritos and HFCS as examples is akin to me telling you that all meat is bad because of all the evidence showing the health detriments of lard…
“Ugh…honestly, I could basically find scientific studies to back of every single rebuttal I have for what you’ve said, but I don’t feel like restating what has already been discussed in like 5 different threads spanning about 20+ pages of material on this site alone.”
Please, give me something to respond to, I love it. I enjoy having friendly debates with people, that’s why I’m here.
It’s funny as hell the way you say this: “Plain and simple: there are dietary needs which strict vegans must face, especially when considering newcomers with low-income. Where a heavy meat eater might see unhealthy rises in cholesterol, a strict vegan will see unhealthy dips in vitamins which come plentifully in meats.”
You continually bring up income level, and that is just irrelevant, because I promise you I can eat a healthier vegan diet on a lower income than you on a “healthy” omnivorous diet. Along with that, though, I still do not see what dietary needs I am facing that you don’t face? Which vitamins do you think I am low in that you are not low in?
“And honestly, the energy that goes in to those animals…is still going to go into those animals. Just because we stop killing them doesn’t mean they stop eating.”
Hmm, let me try this; right now, at the present time, let’s say 5% of the American population is vegan. Now, let’s say, last friday, 122,000 cows were slaughtered (http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/sj_ls710.txt). Now, let’s say, this weekend, an additional 45% of the population became vegan. Do you think on monday another 122,000 cows will be slaughtered? yeah, more than likely they will, though sadly most of that meat will be thrown away by the supermarkets once it expires. Because of this, the supermarkets will stock less meat. Because there is now less demand for meat, the meat industry gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Now, one year from now, 50% of the population is vegan. Do you still believe that there will be as many cows as there are today? NO. That’s like saying once computers become obsolete there will still be all these computers that need power… NO! If the industry dies down, its gone. The cow farmers will not keep cows and just not slaughter them. They will not continue to feed these animals for no purpose… Simply one thing will happen, there will be less cows. Therefore less mouths to feed. Therefore more corn for me.
“All in all, moderation will maintain the earth just fine.”
Would you say the system we have right now is respectably moderate?
“Overdosing on one aspect or the other is a health risk, which again, I don’t feel like proving for the 1 millionth time.” Right now we are overdosing on everything, and that’s no better than overdosing on one thing… And what have you proved any times?
“Do whatever you feel like, but don’t come in here acting all high and mighty because YOU are the only one “doing the right thing.”” You mad? I may be coming across as high and mighty but that surely isn’t my intention. Also, I never said what I do is the right thing. I strongly believe that I still have a VERY long way to go before I would be anywhere near optimal conditions in my life.
“It’s not like I seek to see you cave or anything, but this circular argument isn’t going to bend either of us anymore than we already have and at least I am willing to give you your lifestyle without grief.”
See the argument you just made sounds to me like the “don’t tread on me” argument. Heres the problem with that. Everybody treads on everybody. We have far too many people to not tread on each other. Not to mention you supporting the slaughter of all of my friends, the caged in animals, is treading on them, and by that, also treading on me. People say, “don’t tread on me, let me smoke my cigarettes, they are MY lungs!” and I say, “this is OUR air that you are polluting”. http://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/25/us/huge-spill-of-hog-waste-fuels-an-old-debate-in-north-carolina.html
@cubilone, Just checked out the trailer and it seems interesting, all about the things we use corn for? corn is such a beautiful plant its no wonder people thought of using it for just about everything… but yes I know what you mean about some people being interested in the idea and others being extremely hostile towards it. But I do firmly believe that everyone is the same, just on a continuum. http://i.imgur.com/iAUwc.jpg “We are one. We just have the same feelings at different times.” Somebody has to be the first person to introduce an idea to somebody, and if it’s gotta be me, so be it. Now obviously, most here have already been introduced to the idea, but unless discussion is continued, the idea will leave. Even if it upsets people, it needs to be discussed.
“Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.” -Albert Einstein
@cubilone, Thank you for bringing your open mind to the conversation. One can always use such a person in discussions. I read in another thread (the one that I posted in here) that cows would not be able to fend for themselves if left to their own devices (or was it they would encroach on other species?). Either way, the key point was that keep a control on the cow population benefits the environment in some way. That being said, the way we keep control is horrible, and I completely agree with your view on that ‘machine.’
I, too, believe that those who can honor the death of their kill as a flow of energy from one to the next, on into the cycles of life, is of great wisdom indeed.
@lytning91 I might not agree with you entirely, but it feels good politely disagreeing with no hurt feelings, on the other hand, I feel many vegetarians could gain from showing the respect you do for different opinions!
@adamd Why do you write it like this? veg*n? I think that it’s one of those things where the dilution of the message doesn’t really count. People who are ready for it will do it no matter what, no-one’s opinion on some table will have any influence either way, apart from some potential bad blood.
I also wrote my post on that other thread, I think it covers my middle-ground opinion nicely… Post #65
-On the environment. Overproduction of corn: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/22/AR2007112201442.html?sid=ST2007112300601
-On economy. Overproduction of corn and soy: http://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/you-are-what-you-grow/
-On morality. The death rates of agriculture for vegan diets versus with cattle included: http://ethik.univie.ac.at/fileadmin/user_upload/inst_ethik_wiss_dialog/Davis__S._2003_The_least_Harm_-_Anti_Veg_in_J._Agric._Ethics.pdf
Also, I never supported the caged-in slaughter of animals. I think that is horrible.
My only real stake in this argument is to have all of the facts correct. I know that if the world were to become even MORE dependent on corn and soy, our land would be devastated more than it already is.
Here are my concerns, in a concise list:
-Insure that ALL of the issues are fixed, not just part of it
-Humane treatment of animals
-Safeguarding the o-zone
-Protecting the land, water, growth, etc from industrialized agriculture
-Insuring the survival of our current population without slighting the other conditions on the list
What I think is ok:
-Eating meat while under the given conditions
-Eating vegetation under the given conditions
Just like wolves don’t seek to torture their prey before eating them, we definitely should NOT be advocating the current method for consuming meats. When I say humane, I mean the animals can live their lives in an open, free environment and be consumed on a much smaller, more natural level. The instant gratification nation that we live in is too blinded to recognize the fact that ‘instant’ means a lot more to a living being than to a TV show.
My core is that eating meat is not a bad thing. Basically I only care about making sure that people who need food have it (as well as are nutritionally sound with what they have) and that ALL sources of food are safe for everything involved, not just part of it. Everything else, from the sick way we manufacture it all to the destruction that industrial-scale production of everything we consume is bad.
Now where are we at?
This is a pleasant discussion and I appreciate that. as background: I grew up on a farm. growing and eating my own veggies as well as raising/hunting/dressing my own meat. I’ve come to believe that all life – plant and animal – is worthy of our respect. I’m no better than the blueberry, the pumpkin, the fish, or the cat. Getting eaten by a bear while fly-fishing would be a particularly poetic way for me to go :-) When I’ve asked this question before it hasn’t been properly rec’d, but this may be the one discussion where it will be addressed without sanctimony:
How do you draw your personal lines, whereby animals (in the case of pescatarians, some animals) are in one way or another not to be eaten, while other forms of life are OK to produce and consume? Is it as simple as “has a CNS”? I’m honestly not trying to be inflammatory . . . if it’s simply a choice based on health with no morality, that’s a different thought. I spouted my soapbox thoughts on that topic in the Responsibility to be a Vegetarian thread.
personally, this has always been a curiosity for me. I honestly don’t know how to decide what living things have a sense of “quality of life” and which ones do not, so I simply avoid the decision entirely by making sure that whatever I consume – plant or animal – was well-treated and leave it at that. I’m open to new ways to think about this that are more nuanced, my proverbial cup is empty and waiting to be filled.
well, half-empty anyway . . .
@cubilone, I write veg*n because that covers both vegans and vegetarians without singling out either group. “People who are ready for it will do it no matter what, no-one’s opinion on some table will have any influence either way, apart from some potential bad blood.” And that is where you and I disagree. I have seen change. And if someone is ready, how do you know? How do they know? Unless you talk about it ;) I honestly believe it to be very similar to campaigning. You know how all the local politicians put signs all over every single median? They just want to get their name out. The more times you see their name, the more likely you are to vote for them when you get to the booth. The more times you meet someone who says that they are veg*n the more likely you are the become one when the time is right.
you said “there is actually a new, test-tube meat that was created from a stem cell of a cow.” which i had heard about before. the only thing that gets me with this is money is being wasted on this type of discovery when there are seemingly more important things we could be spending time and money researching.
we do not need meat to survive, we have the ability to choose. I dont believe we have the right to take the life of something purely for enjoyment. I am not sure how i feel about eating meat that has lead a full life and died naturally. I dont really like the thought of eating flesh these days but i dont think i would object to someone else doing it if it was from an animal that died of natural causes.
@daveb, “How do you draw your personal lines, whereby animals (in the case of pescatarians, some animals) are in one way or another not to be eaten, while other forms of life are OK to produce and consume?” I understand where your coming from with that actually although I dont have the answer to the question I do think it is a valid question to ask.
@lytning91, I disagree, check out the work of Dr. McDougall if you are interested in the science. I don’t see why anyone would need to take supplements unless they are not eating enough fruits and veg. You cannot get the same vits and mins from meat that you can from fruit and veg. There are no supplements you need to take if you stop eating meat.
Overproducing of vegetation is irrelevant if I understand where you are coming from correctly, in fact it supports the veg*n cause. Let’s say a cow must eat 10lbs of corn to produce 1lb of meat. *HYPOTHETICALLY* While you could eat 1lb of meat and be satisfied for 1 day, you could also eat 2lbs of corn every day and be satisfied for 5 days. Therefore, it is required that less food is produced to feed more people for a longer duration.
My goal is to do the best *I* can. I disagree with the school of thought that says if two things are bad it doesn’t matter which one you choose because they are both bad. I subscribe to the school of thought that says is two things can have negative impacts I will do my best to choose the one that has the *least* negative impact.
@pipthecynical,also I’ve heard according to research, cows are generally very intelligent animals who can remember things for a long time. Animal behaviorists have found that cows interact in socially complex ways, developing friendships over time and sometimes holding grudges against other cows who treat them badly.
Just something interesting I had looked into once.
@adamd, I feel like corn is a bad example to use because you get far more nutrition from corn-feed meat than from corn. It’s just a bunch of starch, just like your previous staple argument backing potatoes and rice. And you most certainly WOULD need a supplement because buying the fresh produce would be far more expensive for families that are strapped for cash. The whole argument I made with you was that poorer families wouldn’t be getting enough nutrition off of a veg/n and so that point is kind of moot here.
The point that I am making about the vegetable/fruit industry was that it’s effect is harmful on the environment, as was described in the other thread that I posted on page one of this thread. It bleeds our world as the current balance does, and if we eliminated the cows that ate the corn, we’d still need as much corn to replace the hole formed from removing meat.
I’m cool with you not accepting that two wrongs aren’t justification to just pick one and run with it, but the fact remains that eliminating meat will not eliminate the dangers our environment is facing. It’s all going to come from somewhere and the ebb and flow will just shift accordingly, but the overall strain won’t change NEARLY enough even if we did completely stop eating meats.
Like I said, I try my best to respect the way of nature and I hope to one day soon be able to carry a larger portion of responsibility. When I get to that day, I will still be eating meat.