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LJ (@lozzjd)    4 months ago

I watched this doco a while ago and it really made me think differently about the way we look at animals.
I am wondering who else has seen this and what your opinions are. Is it over the top or truth. I guess it depends on where you live and how you consume your meat. I think everyone should watch something like this so people are making an informed decision. thoughts?
I cant get on the site from work so i cant post a link but google earthlings if you have never heard of it.

0 votes, posted 05.21.2012 at 4:33 pm
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adam (@adamd)1 year, 10 months ago ago

@lytning91, I disagree, check out the work of Dr. McDougall if you are interested in the science. I don’t see why anyone would need to take supplements unless they are not eating enough fruits and veg. You cannot get the same vits and mins from meat that you can from fruit and veg. There are no supplements you need to take if you stop eating meat.

Overproducing of vegetation is irrelevant if I understand where you are coming from correctly, in fact it supports the veg*n cause. Let’s say a cow must eat 10lbs of corn to produce 1lb of meat. *HYPOTHETICALLY* While you could eat 1lb of meat and be satisfied for 1 day, you could also eat 2lbs of corn every day and be satisfied for 5 days. Therefore, it is required that less food is produced to feed more people for a longer duration.

My goal is to do the best *I* can. I disagree with the school of thought that says if two things are bad it doesn’t matter which one you choose because they are both bad. I subscribe to the school of thought that says is two things can have negative impacts I will do my best to choose the one that has the *least* negative impact.

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DaJetPlane (@lytning91)1 year, 10 months ago ago

@adamd, I feel like corn is a bad example to use because you get far more nutrition from corn-feed meat than from corn. It’s just a bunch of starch, just like your previous staple argument backing potatoes and rice. And you most certainly WOULD need a supplement because buying the fresh produce would be far more expensive for families that are strapped for cash. The whole argument I made with you was that poorer families wouldn’t be getting enough nutrition off of a veg/n and so that point is kind of moot here.

The point that I am making about the vegetable/fruit industry was that it’s effect is harmful on the environment, as was described in the other thread that I posted on page one of this thread. It bleeds our world as the current balance does, and if we eliminated the cows that ate the corn, we’d still need as much corn to replace the hole formed from removing meat.

I’m cool with you not accepting that two wrongs aren’t justification to just pick one and run with it, but the fact remains that eliminating meat will not eliminate the dangers our environment is facing. It’s all going to come from somewhere and the ebb and flow will just shift accordingly, but the overall strain won’t change NEARLY enough even if we did completely stop eating meats.

Like I said, I try my best to respect the way of nature and I hope to one day soon be able to carry a larger portion of responsibility. When I get to that day, I will still be eating meat.

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adam (@adamd)1 year, 10 months ago ago

@lytning91, Hmm well I guess I can only disagree with you that 1lb of meat is more nutritious than 2lbs of corn. Also, corn is much cheaper than meat, so my argument still stands. It is cheaper to be healthy a healthy vegan than to eat meat as well. Simply because the two diets are the exact same. The only difference is the addition of something, meat. There is no other difference between a healthy diet of a veg perspective vs omni perspective. Not to mention meat is more expensive than veg typically.

In response to your second paragraph; the meat industry causes more environmental issues than the veg industry, I believe.

So, if we want to pick the lesser of two evils (rather than being the absolute best we can – growing our own organic fruit/veg/harvesting wild plants and possibly hunting wild animals) we would still end up not eating meat (unless hunting/fishing). Remember, it’s not about *eliminating* the dangers our environment is facing. It is about minimization. Making the least impact to the environment while making the most impact on people.

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DaJetPlane (@lytning91)1 year, 10 months ago ago

@adamd, I do not see how you think corn as more nutritional value. You are comparing a food with a TON of carbs to a good with a TON of protein, Vitamin C, AND Iron as well as, if quality meat, an appropriate amount of fats. Yes, corn is cheap. Corn is cheap because it’s easy to make and practically valueless when compared to the nutritional value of meat. Corn also devastates the land in which it is grown, as I said previously. I cannot argue further about the superiority of meat to corn.

Like I said, if the meat went away, all of the energy required from a lack of meat would go to producing MORE vegetables. I mean, how do you suppose these animals get fed? Do you think those vegetables are just able to be shipped without A/C as well? They expire like meat, and I believe that the difference between the two may exist, but not to a degree that requires attention.

I believe having my own grown vegetables and hunting would be the most minimization possible. This goes back to the whole food chain deal, and previous histories of consumption. We are biologically supposed to eat both meat and vegetables. I respect the chain and will try to perform my link as best as possible as I grow and mature.

If we talk about ideals, humans should die altogether. No matter where we place our hands, we are going to tap our environment to a point where we feel morally unsound. If the animals are left alone, the earth will still feel our wrath, just disproportionated. It all has to come from somewhere. Humans require the same amount of energy no matter what, but we live in a world FAR beyond requirement; our overextension is so vast that the only real way to clean our conscience would be to purge ourselves from the earth. Since that isn’t an option, I merely think we should choose to try and take what we need. Whether this be meat, fruit, vegetable, or whatever, just take what you need and respect the offering.

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adam (@adamd)1 year, 10 months ago ago

@lytning91, :D
I do not see how you think meat as more nutritional value.
What is bad about carbs? Carbs = carbohydrate, aka glucose, glycogen, lactose, etc. Your brain, it runs on glucose. Your muscles, they run on glycogen. Your body, was created from the energy given to you from your mother in the form of lactose. Appreciate carbs. The gladiators, way back in the day, were known as “barley men,” look it up. Carbs give you the energy and stamina needed to fight in the ring. Not only that, but they (carbs) power athletes to do some truly amazing things.

Along with that, corn has more than enough protein. It consists of about 10% of the calories. Not to mention you’ve got all of your essential amino acids.
Corn has more vitamin C than meat. 2000 cals of corn will take you to 200% RDA for iron. Check it out for yourself. I use a sweet website called Cronometer.

Also, corn, grown properly, does not devastate the land. Native Americans have been growing maize for a long-ass time. Ever heard of the “three sisters?” They are corn, beans, and squash. The Iroquois practically worshipped them. http://www.reneesgarden.com/articles/3sisters.html
Speaking of devastating land though… meat… ugh ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_meat_production

“Like I said, if the meat went away, all of the energy required from a lack of meat would go to producing MORE vegetables.” There would be no energy lost. In the current system, the “meat” system, energy is lost. These animals do not have 100% efficiency to turn the grain and grass we feed them into the delicious fat everyone craves. There is much energy lost. Drop the meat, and eat the vegetables yourself, and now you cut out the middleman :D and significantly less energy is lost.

“I mean, how do you suppose these animals get fed? Do you think those vegetables are just able to be shipped without A/C as well? They expire like meat, and I believe that the difference between the two may exist, but not to a degree that requires attention.” Now I’m not really sure what you mean here, but I’m gonna take a shot at it. I assume you are correct in that most fruit and veg need to be cooled while being shipped. And you are correct, all food will eventually go bad, though I think we can agree, eggs/milk/meat definitely go bad faster and more nasty-like than things like dried corn, beans, rice, etc.

“We are biologically supposed to eat both meat and vegetables.” Who says? Let me correct you, if I may. “We are biologically capable to eat both meat and vegetables.” That sounds more reasonable to me. Nobody knows what anyone is “supposed” to do. It’s like saying one thing is more “natural” than another. It means nothing really, because we can only speculate on what nature intended.

If we talk about ideals, I’d say you have a very negative ideal! :P I completely disagree about what you just said, that humans require the same amount of energy. Are you saying that, if all of the 1%ers decided that being rich blows and having 8 mansions and 4 private jets is unimportant so they ditched them and went camping, we would somehow still use the same energy? We *choose* to use the amount of energy that we do. The best I can do is to “be the change” (thanks Ghandi) and hope others will come to the realization soon enough. Nothing is set in stone. EVERYTHING is constantly changing. If we want to, we can change the world. Right now. It’s just a choice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMUiwTubYu0

Here’s a little bit more info on corn:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=90

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DaJetPlane (@lytning91)1 year, 10 months ago ago

Carbs are straight energy. Too much of the stuff and you start stacking way too much weight: http://www.usnews.com/news/50-ways-to-improve-your-life/articles/2007/12/17/health-reasons-to-cut-back-on-corn-consumption

Ugh…honestly, I could basically find scientific studies to back of every single rebuttal I have for what you’ve said, but I don’t feel like restating what has already been discussed in like 5 different threads spanning about 20+ pages of material on this site alone.

Plain and simple: there are dietary needs which strict vegans must face, especially when considering newcomers with low-income. Where a heavy meat eater might see unhealthy rises in cholesterol, a strict vegan will see unhealthy dips in vitamins which come plentifully in meats.

And honestly, the energy that goes in to those animals…is still going to go into those animals. Just because we stop killing them doesn’t mean they stop eating. All in all, moderation will maintain the earth just fine. Overdosing on one aspect or the other is a health risk, which again, I don’t feel like proving for the 1 millionth time.

Do whatever you feel like, but don’t come in here acting all high and mighty because YOU are the only one “doing the right thing.” It’s not like I seek to see you cave or anything, but this circular argument isn’t going to bend either of us anymore than we already have and at least I am willing to give you your lifestyle without grief.

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Dimitris (@cubilone)1 year, 10 months ago ago

I suggest both you guys watch King Corn, if you haven’t already done so. @adamd @lytning91

The above discussion is what usually happens when people ask me why I am vegetarian or if I tell them why I think that buying and supporting the meat industry is harmful. Some people will look into the idea but only if they are ready and willing; the others will be indifferent all the way to hostile.

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adam (@adamd)1 year, 10 months ago ago

@lytning91, You are right, carbs are energy. do you want energy? hahaha energy is beautiful eat more corn!

too much of what stuff and you will stack weight? carbs? nah man, if you gain weight on a primarily carb diet i will be astounded. i typically consume 3000+ cals a day with 80+% coming from carbs. you might think im fat, right? nope, im 6′ 150lbs, people consistently tell me im too skinny, i say damn, i must be eating too many carbs hah!

Just checking, did you read that link that you posted? Just in case, here is the final paragraph for you:
“Ultimately, it’s not that corn is inherently unhealthy or should be banished from the food system, says Aaron Woolf, director of the 2007 documentary King Corn, which highlights the dominance of corn in the agricultural system. “Corn is an astounding plant capable of producing an astounding amount of food from an astoundingly small space,” he says. “The problem is the scale at which we produce it.”"

Just to make sure we are on the same page, I do understand that refined foods are bad. That is why I always recommend a WHOLE FOODS, plant based diet. For you to tell me that corn is bad for me by citing Doritos and HFCS as examples is akin to me telling you that all meat is bad because of all the evidence showing the health detriments of lard…

“Ugh…honestly, I could basically find scientific studies to back of every single rebuttal I have for what you’ve said, but I don’t feel like restating what has already been discussed in like 5 different threads spanning about 20+ pages of material on this site alone.”
Please, give me something to respond to, I love it. I enjoy having friendly debates with people, that’s why I’m here.

It’s funny as hell the way you say this: “Plain and simple: there are dietary needs which strict vegans must face, especially when considering newcomers with low-income. Where a heavy meat eater might see unhealthy rises in cholesterol, a strict vegan will see unhealthy dips in vitamins which come plentifully in meats.”
You continually bring up income level, and that is just irrelevant, because I promise you I can eat a healthier vegan diet on a lower income than you on a “healthy” omnivorous diet. Along with that, though, I still do not see what dietary needs I am facing that you don’t face? Which vitamins do you think I am low in that you are not low in?

“And honestly, the energy that goes in to those animals…is still going to go into those animals. Just because we stop killing them doesn’t mean they stop eating.”
Hmm, let me try this; right now, at the present time, let’s say 5% of the American population is vegan. Now, let’s say, last friday, 122,000 cows were slaughtered (http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/sj_ls710.txt). Now, let’s say, this weekend, an additional 45% of the population became vegan. Do you think on monday another 122,000 cows will be slaughtered? yeah, more than likely they will, though sadly most of that meat will be thrown away by the supermarkets once it expires. Because of this, the supermarkets will stock less meat. Because there is now less demand for meat, the meat industry gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Now, one year from now, 50% of the population is vegan. Do you still believe that there will be as many cows as there are today? NO. That’s like saying once computers become obsolete there will still be all these computers that need power… NO! If the industry dies down, its gone. The cow farmers will not keep cows and just not slaughter them. They will not continue to feed these animals for no purpose… Simply one thing will happen, there will be less cows. Therefore less mouths to feed. Therefore more corn for me.

“All in all, moderation will maintain the earth just fine.”
Would you say the system we have right now is respectably moderate?

“Overdosing on one aspect or the other is a health risk, which again, I don’t feel like proving for the 1 millionth time.” Right now we are overdosing on everything, and that’s no better than overdosing on one thing… And what have you proved any times?

“Do whatever you feel like, but don’t come in here acting all high and mighty because YOU are the only one “doing the right thing.”” You mad? I may be coming across as high and mighty but that surely isn’t my intention. Also, I never said what I do is the right thing. I strongly believe that I still have a VERY long way to go before I would be anywhere near optimal conditions in my life.

“It’s not like I seek to see you cave or anything, but this circular argument isn’t going to bend either of us anymore than we already have and at least I am willing to give you your lifestyle without grief.”
See the argument you just made sounds to me like the “don’t tread on me” argument. Heres the problem with that. Everybody treads on everybody. We have far too many people to not tread on each other. Not to mention you supporting the slaughter of all of my friends, the caged in animals, is treading on them, and by that, also treading on me. People say, “don’t tread on me, let me smoke my cigarettes, they are MY lungs!” and I say, “this is OUR air that you are polluting”. http://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/25/us/huge-spill-of-hog-waste-fuels-an-old-debate-in-north-carolina.html

@cubilone, Just checked out the trailer and it seems interesting, all about the things we use corn for? corn is such a beautiful plant its no wonder people thought of using it for just about everything… but yes I know what you mean about some people being interested in the idea and others being extremely hostile towards it. But I do firmly believe that everyone is the same, just on a continuum. http://i.imgur.com/iAUwc.jpg “We are one. We just have the same feelings at different times.” Somebody has to be the first person to introduce an idea to somebody, and if it’s gotta be me, so be it. Now obviously, most here have already been introduced to the idea, but unless discussion is continued, the idea will leave. Even if it upsets people, it needs to be discussed.

“Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.” -Albert Einstein

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DaJetPlane (@lytning91)1 year, 10 months ago ago

@adamd,

-On the environment. Overproduction of corn: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/22/AR2007112201442.html?sid=ST2007112300601

-On economy. Overproduction of corn and soy: http://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/you-are-what-you-grow/

-On morality. The death rates of agriculture for vegan diets versus with cattle included: http://ethik.univie.ac.at/fileadmin/user_upload/inst_ethik_wiss_dialog/Davis__S._2003_The_least_Harm_-_Anti_Veg_in_J._Agric._Ethics.pdf

Also, I never supported the caged-in slaughter of animals. I think that is horrible.

My only real stake in this argument is to have all of the facts correct. I know that if the world were to become even MORE dependent on corn and soy, our land would be devastated more than it already is.

Here are my concerns, in a concise list:
-Insure that ALL of the issues are fixed, not just part of it
-Humane treatment of animals
-Safeguarding the o-zone
-Protecting the land, water, growth, etc from industrialized agriculture
-Insuring the survival of our current population without slighting the other conditions on the list

What I think is ok:
-Eating meat while under the given conditions
-Eating vegetation under the given conditions

Just like wolves don’t seek to torture their prey before eating them, we definitely should NOT be advocating the current method for consuming meats. When I say humane, I mean the animals can live their lives in an open, free environment and be consumed on a much smaller, more natural level. The instant gratification nation that we live in is too blinded to recognize the fact that ‘instant’ means a lot more to a living being than to a TV show.

My core is that eating meat is not a bad thing. Basically I only care about making sure that people who need food have it (as well as are nutritionally sound with what they have) and that ALL sources of food are safe for everything involved, not just part of it. Everything else, from the sick way we manufacture it all to the destruction that industrial-scale production of everything we consume is bad.

Now where are we at?

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Q (@Qualohuasca)4 months ago ago

Watching this now, and do think everyone should watch it. Unfortunately it requires a shitload of balls. It’s impossible to describe how hard it is to watch this, I’m 55mins in and still reeling and pausing. Never has watching a film been this hard. Never have I actually sobbed out loud, not even as a kid. I am not surprised this hasn’t gone viral: I hardly have the stomach for it. It’s even on HE, and only has two “loves”.

http://www.highexistence.com/videos/view/earthlings-full-doc-for-education/

Isn’t it funny how the word “humane” comes from “human” and means something like “noble” and “kind”? Especially when it’s put into a context like this. We are so full of shit, we are.

I haven’t really had a problem with eating meat before, although I did figure that if I ever had to kill for meat, I wouldn’t. This is, as someone else has said, the final nail in the coffin. There’s no way I’m willing to be a part of this sort of atrocity anymore. We’ve created a hell on earth, just not for our own species, but for most others. Imagine if reincarnation is true…

Meat may not be murder strictly speaking, but the line goes here: if you preach about or believe in unconditional or global love, consider yourself a compassionate human being, consider yourself awakened/enlightened/conscious and so on, there’s no way you can eat meat and not be a complete and utter hypocrite. It feels horrible to see I’ve been this way. It’s so hard to see the reality for what it is. And I hate using that word, reality.

Still forty minutes to go. Not going to stop midway.
If you’re going to defend meat, watch the film first.
Then consider if you’d be eating meat at all if it required killing. Would you kill a man for his possessions?

Thank fuck the global economy is going to hell and the oil is disappearing. Even if that means our extinction.

tl;dr: bump for great Justice.

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