@cubilone, I write veg*n because that covers both vegans and vegetarians without singling out either group. “People who are ready for it will do it no matter what, no-one’s opinion on some table will have any influence either way, apart from some potential bad blood.” And that is where you and I disagree. I have seen change. And if someone is ready, how do you know? How do they know? Unless you talk about it ;) I honestly believe it to be very similar to campaigning. You know how all the local politicians put signs all over every single median? They just want to get their name out. The more times you see their name, the more likely you are to vote for them when you get to the booth. The more times you meet someone who says that they are veg*n the more likely you are the become one when the time is right.
@lytning91, I disagree, check out the work of Dr. McDougall if you are interested in the science. I don’t see why anyone would need to take supplements unless they are not eating enough fruits and veg. You cannot get the same vits and mins from meat that you can from fruit and veg. There are no supplements you need to take if you stop eating meat.
Overproducing of vegetation is irrelevant if I understand where you are coming from correctly, in fact it supports the veg*n cause. Let’s say a cow must eat 10lbs of corn to produce 1lb of meat. *HYPOTHETICALLY* While you could eat 1lb of meat and be satisfied for 1 day, you could also eat 2lbs of corn every day and be satisfied for 5 days. Therefore, it is required that less food is produced to feed more people for a longer duration.
My goal is to do the best *I* can. I disagree with the school of thought that says if two things are bad it doesn’t matter which one you choose because they are both bad. I subscribe to the school of thought that says is two things can have negative impacts I will do my best to choose the one that has the *least* negative impact.
@adamd, I feel like corn is a bad example to use because you get far more nutrition from corn-feed meat than from corn. It’s just a bunch of starch, just like your previous staple argument backing potatoes and rice. And you most certainly WOULD need a supplement because buying the fresh produce would be far more expensive for families that are strapped for cash. The whole argument I made with you was that poorer families wouldn’t be getting enough nutrition off of a veg/n and so that point is kind of moot here.
The point that I am making about the vegetable/fruit industry was that it’s effect is harmful on the environment, as was described in the other thread that I posted on page one of this thread. It bleeds our world as the current balance does, and if we eliminated the cows that ate the corn, we’d still need as much corn to replace the hole formed from removing meat.
I’m cool with you not accepting that two wrongs aren’t justification to just pick one and run with it, but the fact remains that eliminating meat will not eliminate the dangers our environment is facing. It’s all going to come from somewhere and the ebb and flow will just shift accordingly, but the overall strain won’t change NEARLY enough even if we did completely stop eating meats.
Like I said, I try my best to respect the way of nature and I hope to one day soon be able to carry a larger portion of responsibility. When I get to that day, I will still be eating meat.
@lytning91, Hmm well I guess I can only disagree with you that 1lb of meat is more nutritious than 2lbs of corn. Also, corn is much cheaper than meat, so my argument still stands. It is cheaper to be healthy a healthy vegan than to eat meat as well. Simply because the two diets are the exact same. The only difference is the addition of something, meat. There is no other difference between a healthy diet of a veg perspective vs omni perspective. Not to mention meat is more expensive than veg typically.
In response to your second paragraph; the meat industry causes more environmental issues than the veg industry, I believe.
So, if we want to pick the lesser of two evils (rather than being the absolute best we can – growing our own organic fruit/veg/harvesting wild plants and possibly hunting wild animals) we would still end up not eating meat (unless hunting/fishing). Remember, it’s not about *eliminating* the dangers our environment is facing. It is about minimization. Making the least impact to the environment while making the most impact on people.
@adamd, I do not see how you think corn as more nutritional value. You are comparing a food with a TON of carbs to a good with a TON of protein, Vitamin C, AND Iron as well as, if quality meat, an appropriate amount of fats. Yes, corn is cheap. Corn is cheap because it’s easy to make and practically valueless when compared to the nutritional value of meat. Corn also devastates the land in which it is grown, as I said previously. I cannot argue further about the superiority of meat to corn.
Like I said, if the meat went away, all of the energy required from a lack of meat would go to producing MORE vegetables. I mean, how do you suppose these animals get fed? Do you think those vegetables are just able to be shipped without A/C as well? They expire like meat, and I believe that the difference between the two may exist, but not to a degree that requires attention.
I believe having my own grown vegetables and hunting would be the most minimization possible. This goes back to the whole food chain deal, and previous histories of consumption. We are biologically supposed to eat both meat and vegetables. I respect the chain and will try to perform my link as best as possible as I grow and mature.
If we talk about ideals, humans should die altogether. No matter where we place our hands, we are going to tap our environment to a point where we feel morally unsound. If the animals are left alone, the earth will still feel our wrath, just disproportionated. It all has to come from somewhere. Humans require the same amount of energy no matter what, but we live in a world FAR beyond requirement; our overextension is so vast that the only real way to clean our conscience would be to purge ourselves from the earth. Since that isn’t an option, I merely think we should choose to try and take what we need. Whether this be meat, fruit, vegetable, or whatever, just take what you need and respect the offering.
Along with that, corn has more than enough protein. It consists of about 10% of the calories. Not to mention you’ve got all of your essential amino acids.
Also, corn, grown properly, does not devastate the land. Native Americans have been growing maize for a long-ass time. Ever heard of the “three sisters?” They are corn, beans, and squash. The Iroquois practically worshipped them. http://www.reneesgarden.com/articles/3sisters.html
“Like I said, if the meat went away, all of the energy required from a lack of meat would go to producing MORE vegetables.” There would be no energy lost. In the current system, the “meat” system, energy is lost. These animals do not have 100% efficiency to turn the grain and grass we feed them into the delicious fat everyone craves. There is much energy lost. Drop the meat, and eat the vegetables yourself, and now you cut out the middleman :D and significantly less energy is lost.
“I mean, how do you suppose these animals get fed? Do you think those vegetables are just able to be shipped without A/C as well? They expire like meat, and I believe that the difference between the two may exist, but not to a degree that requires attention.” Now I’m not really sure what you mean here, but I’m gonna take a shot at it. I assume you are correct in that most fruit and veg need to be cooled while being shipped. And you are correct, all food will eventually go bad, though I think we can agree, eggs/milk/meat definitely go bad faster and more nasty-like than things like dried corn, beans, rice, etc.
“We are biologically supposed to eat both meat and vegetables.” Who says? Let me correct you, if I may. “We are biologically capable to eat both meat and vegetables.” That sounds more reasonable to me. Nobody knows what anyone is “supposed” to do. It’s like saying one thing is more “natural” than another. It means nothing really, because we can only speculate on what nature intended.
If we talk about ideals, I’d say you have a very negative ideal! :P I completely disagree about what you just said, that humans require the same amount of energy. Are you saying that, if all of the 1%ers decided that being rich blows and having 8 mansions and 4 private jets is unimportant so they ditched them and went camping, we would somehow still use the same energy? We *choose* to use the amount of energy that we do. The best I can do is to “be the change” (thanks Ghandi) and hope others will come to the realization soon enough. Nothing is set in stone. EVERYTHING is constantly changing. If we want to, we can change the world. Right now. It’s just a choice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMUiwTubYu0
Here’s a little bit more info on corn:
Carbs are straight energy. Too much of the stuff and you start stacking way too much weight: http://www.usnews.com/news/50-ways-to-improve-your-life/articles/2007/12/17/health-reasons-to-cut-back-on-corn-consumption
Ugh…honestly, I could basically find scientific studies to back of every single rebuttal I have for what you’ve said, but I don’t feel like restating what has already been discussed in like 5 different threads spanning about 20+ pages of material on this site alone.
Plain and simple: there are dietary needs which strict vegans must face, especially when considering newcomers with low-income. Where a heavy meat eater might see unhealthy rises in cholesterol, a strict vegan will see unhealthy dips in vitamins which come plentifully in meats.
And honestly, the energy that goes in to those animals…is still going to go into those animals. Just because we stop killing them doesn’t mean they stop eating. All in all, moderation will maintain the earth just fine. Overdosing on one aspect or the other is a health risk, which again, I don’t feel like proving for the 1 millionth time.
Do whatever you feel like, but don’t come in here acting all high and mighty because YOU are the only one “doing the right thing.” It’s not like I seek to see you cave or anything, but this circular argument isn’t going to bend either of us anymore than we already have and at least I am willing to give you your lifestyle without grief.
The above discussion is what usually happens when people ask me why I am vegetarian or if I tell them why I think that buying and supporting the meat industry is harmful. Some people will look into the idea but only if they are ready and willing; the others will be indifferent all the way to hostile.
@lytning91, You are right, carbs are energy. do you want energy? hahaha energy is beautiful eat more corn!
too much of what stuff and you will stack weight? carbs? nah man, if you gain weight on a primarily carb diet i will be astounded. i typically consume 3000+ cals a day with 80+% coming from carbs. you might think im fat, right? nope, im 6′ 150lbs, people consistently tell me im too skinny, i say damn, i must be eating too many carbs hah!
Just checking, did you read that link that you posted? Just in case, here is the final paragraph for you:
Just to make sure we are on the same page, I do understand that refined foods are bad. That is why I always recommend a WHOLE FOODS, plant based diet. For you to tell me that corn is bad for me by citing Doritos and HFCS as examples is akin to me telling you that all meat is bad because of all the evidence showing the health detriments of lard…
“Ugh…honestly, I could basically find scientific studies to back of every single rebuttal I have for what you’ve said, but I don’t feel like restating what has already been discussed in like 5 different threads spanning about 20+ pages of material on this site alone.”
It’s funny as hell the way you say this: “Plain and simple: there are dietary needs which strict vegans must face, especially when considering newcomers with low-income. Where a heavy meat eater might see unhealthy rises in cholesterol, a strict vegan will see unhealthy dips in vitamins which come plentifully in meats.”
“And honestly, the energy that goes in to those animals…is still going to go into those animals. Just because we stop killing them doesn’t mean they stop eating.”
“All in all, moderation will maintain the earth just fine.”
“Overdosing on one aspect or the other is a health risk, which again, I don’t feel like proving for the 1 millionth time.” Right now we are overdosing on everything, and that’s no better than overdosing on one thing… And what have you proved any times?
“Do whatever you feel like, but don’t come in here acting all high and mighty because YOU are the only one “doing the right thing.”” You mad? I may be coming across as high and mighty but that surely isn’t my intention. Also, I never said what I do is the right thing. I strongly believe that I still have a VERY long way to go before I would be anywhere near optimal conditions in my life.
“It’s not like I seek to see you cave or anything, but this circular argument isn’t going to bend either of us anymore than we already have and at least I am willing to give you your lifestyle without grief.”
@cubilone, Just checked out the trailer and it seems interesting, all about the things we use corn for? corn is such a beautiful plant its no wonder people thought of using it for just about everything… but yes I know what you mean about some people being interested in the idea and others being extremely hostile towards it. But I do firmly believe that everyone is the same, just on a continuum. http://i.imgur.com/iAUwc.jpg “We are one. We just have the same feelings at different times.” Somebody has to be the first person to introduce an idea to somebody, and if it’s gotta be me, so be it. Now obviously, most here have already been introduced to the idea, but unless discussion is continued, the idea will leave. Even if it upsets people, it needs to be discussed.
“Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.” -Albert Einstein
-On the environment. Overproduction of corn: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/22/AR2007112201442.html?sid=ST2007112300601
-On economy. Overproduction of corn and soy: http://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/you-are-what-you-grow/
-On morality. The death rates of agriculture for vegan diets versus with cattle included: http://ethik.univie.ac.at/fileadmin/user_upload/inst_ethik_wiss_dialog/Davis__S._2003_The_least_Harm_-_Anti_Veg_in_J._Agric._Ethics.pdf
Also, I never supported the caged-in slaughter of animals. I think that is horrible.
My only real stake in this argument is to have all of the facts correct. I know that if the world were to become even MORE dependent on corn and soy, our land would be devastated more than it already is.
Here are my concerns, in a concise list:
What I think is ok:
Just like wolves don’t seek to torture their prey before eating them, we definitely should NOT be advocating the current method for consuming meats. When I say humane, I mean the animals can live their lives in an open, free environment and be consumed on a much smaller, more natural level. The instant gratification nation that we live in is too blinded to recognize the fact that ‘instant’ means a lot more to a living being than to a TV show.
My core is that eating meat is not a bad thing. Basically I only care about making sure that people who need food have it (as well as are nutritionally sound with what they have) and that ALL sources of food are safe for everything involved, not just part of it. Everything else, from the sick way we manufacture it all to the destruction that industrial-scale production of everything we consume is bad.
Now where are we at?
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