earthlings

@cubilone, I write veg*n because that covers both vegans and vegetarians without singling out either group. “People who are ready for it will do it no matter what, no-one’s opinion on some table will have any influence either way, apart from some potential bad blood.” And that is where you and I disagree. I have seen change. And if someone is ready, how do you know? How do they know? Unless you talk about it ;) I honestly believe it to be very similar to campaigning. You know how all the local politicians put signs all over every single median? They just want to get their name out. The more times you see their name, the more likely you are to vote for them when you get to the booth. The more times you meet someone who says that they are veg*n the more likely you are the become one when the time is right.

@adamd, I feel like corn is a bad example to use because you get far more nutrition from corn-feed meat than from corn. It’s just a bunch of starch, just like your previous staple argument backing potatoes and rice. And you most certainly WOULD need a supplement because buying the fresh produce would be far more expensive for families that are strapped for cash. The whole argument I made with you was that poorer families wouldn’t be getting enough nutrition off of a veg/n and so that point is kind of moot here.

The point that I am making about the vegetable/fruit industry was that it’s effect is harmful on the environment, as was described in the other thread that I posted on page one of this thread. It bleeds our world as the current balance does, and if we eliminated the cows that ate the corn, we’d still need as much corn to replace the hole formed from removing meat.

I’m cool with you not accepting that two wrongs aren’t justification to just pick one and run with it, but the fact remains that eliminating meat will not eliminate the dangers our environment is facing. It’s all going to come from somewhere and the ebb and flow will just shift accordingly, but the overall strain won’t change NEARLY enough even if we did completely stop eating meats.

Like I said, I try my best to respect the way of nature and I hope to one day soon be able to carry a larger portion of responsibility. When I get to that day, I will still be eating meat.

@adamd, I do not see how you think corn as more nutritional value. You are comparing a food with a TON of carbs to a good with a TON of protein, Vitamin C, AND Iron as well as, if quality meat, an appropriate amount of fats. Yes, corn is cheap. Corn is cheap because it’s easy to make and practically valueless when compared to the nutritional value of meat. Corn also devastates the land in which it is grown, as I said previously. I cannot argue further about the superiority of meat to corn.

Like I said, if the meat went away, all of the energy required from a lack of meat would go to producing MORE vegetables. I mean, how do you suppose these animals get fed? Do you think those vegetables are just able to be shipped without A/C as well? They expire like meat, and I believe that the difference between the two may exist, but not to a degree that requires attention.

I believe having my own grown vegetables and hunting would be the most minimization possible. This goes back to the whole food chain deal, and previous histories of consumption. We are biologically supposed to eat both meat and vegetables. I respect the chain and will try to perform my link as best as possible as I grow and mature.

If we talk about ideals, humans should die altogether. No matter where we place our hands, we are going to tap our environment to a point where we feel morally unsound. If the animals are left alone, the earth will still feel our wrath, just disproportionated. It all has to come from somewhere. Humans require the same amount of energy no matter what, but we live in a world FAR beyond requirement; our overextension is so vast that the only real way to clean our conscience would be to purge ourselves from the earth. Since that isn’t an option, I merely think we should choose to try and take what we need. Whether this be meat, fruit, vegetable, or whatever, just take what you need and respect the offering.

Carbs are straight energy. Too much of the stuff and you start stacking way too much weight: http://www.usnews.com/news/50-ways-to-improve-your-life/articles/2007/12/17/health-reasons-to-cut-back-on-corn-consumption

Ugh…honestly, I could basically find scientific studies to back of every single rebuttal I have for what you’ve said, but I don’t feel like restating what has already been discussed in like 5 different threads spanning about 20+ pages of material on this site alone.

Plain and simple: there are dietary needs which strict vegans must face, especially when considering newcomers with low-income. Where a heavy meat eater might see unhealthy rises in cholesterol, a strict vegan will see unhealthy dips in vitamins which come plentifully in meats.

And honestly, the energy that goes in to those animals…is still going to go into those animals. Just because we stop killing them doesn’t mean they stop eating. All in all, moderation will maintain the earth just fine. Overdosing on one aspect or the other is a health risk, which again, I don’t feel like proving for the 1 millionth time.

Do whatever you feel like, but don’t come in here acting all high and mighty because YOU are the only one “doing the right thing.” It’s not like I seek to see you cave or anything, but this circular argument isn’t going to bend either of us anymore than we already have and at least I am willing to give you your lifestyle without grief.

@lytning91, You are right, carbs are energy. do you want energy? hahaha energy is beautiful eat more corn!

too much of what stuff and you will stack weight? carbs? nah man, if you gain weight on a primarily carb diet i will be astounded. i typically consume 3000+ cals a day with 80+% coming from carbs. you might think im fat, right? nope, im 6′ 150lbs, people consistently tell me im too skinny, i say damn, i must be eating too many carbs hah!

Just checking, did you read that link that you posted? Just in case, here is the final paragraph for you:
“Ultimately, it’s not that corn is inherently unhealthy or should be banished from the food system, says Aaron Woolf, director of the 2007 documentary King Corn, which highlights the dominance of corn in the agricultural system. “Corn is an astounding plant capable of producing an astounding amount of food from an astoundingly small space,” he says. “The problem is the scale at which we produce it.”"

Just to make sure we are on the same page, I do understand that refined foods are bad. That is why I always recommend a WHOLE FOODS, plant based diet. For you to tell me that corn is bad for me by citing Doritos and HFCS as examples is akin to me telling you that all meat is bad because of all the evidence showing the health detriments of lard…

“Ugh…honestly, I could basically find scientific studies to back of every single rebuttal I have for what you’ve said, but I don’t feel like restating what has already been discussed in like 5 different threads spanning about 20+ pages of material on this site alone.”
Please, give me something to respond to, I love it. I enjoy having friendly debates with people, that’s why I’m here.

It’s funny as hell the way you say this: “Plain and simple: there are dietary needs which strict vegans must face, especially when considering newcomers with low-income. Where a heavy meat eater might see unhealthy rises in cholesterol, a strict vegan will see unhealthy dips in vitamins which come plentifully in meats.”
You continually bring up income level, and that is just irrelevant, because I promise you I can eat a healthier vegan diet on a lower income than you on a “healthy” omnivorous diet. Along with that, though, I still do not see what dietary needs I am facing that you don’t face? Which vitamins do you think I am low in that you are not low in?

“And honestly, the energy that goes in to those animals…is still going to go into those animals. Just because we stop killing them doesn’t mean they stop eating.”
Hmm, let me try this; right now, at the present time, let’s say 5% of the American population is vegan. Now, let’s say, last friday, 122,000 cows were slaughtered (http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/sj_ls710.txt). Now, let’s say, this weekend, an additional 45% of the population became vegan. Do you think on monday another 122,000 cows will be slaughtered? yeah, more than likely they will, though sadly most of that meat will be thrown away by the supermarkets once it expires. Because of this, the supermarkets will stock less meat. Because there is now less demand for meat, the meat industry gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Now, one year from now, 50% of the population is vegan. Do you still believe that there will be as many cows as there are today? NO. That’s like saying once computers become obsolete there will still be all these computers that need power… NO! If the industry dies down, its gone. The cow farmers will not keep cows and just not slaughter them. They will not continue to feed these animals for no purpose… Simply one thing will happen, there will be less cows. Therefore less mouths to feed. Therefore more corn for me.

“All in all, moderation will maintain the earth just fine.”
Would you say the system we have right now is respectably moderate?

“Overdosing on one aspect or the other is a health risk, which again, I don’t feel like proving for the 1 millionth time.” Right now we are overdosing on everything, and that’s no better than overdosing on one thing… And what have you proved any times?

“Do whatever you feel like, but don’t come in here acting all high and mighty because YOU are the only one “doing the right thing.”” You mad? I may be coming across as high and mighty but that surely isn’t my intention. Also, I never said what I do is the right thing. I strongly believe that I still have a VERY long way to go before I would be anywhere near optimal conditions in my life.

“It’s not like I seek to see you cave or anything, but this circular argument isn’t going to bend either of us anymore than we already have and at least I am willing to give you your lifestyle without grief.”
See the argument you just made sounds to me like the “don’t tread on me” argument. Heres the problem with that. Everybody treads on everybody. We have far too many people to not tread on each other. Not to mention you supporting the slaughter of all of my friends, the caged in animals, is treading on them, and by that, also treading on me. People say, “don’t tread on me, let me smoke my cigarettes, they are MY lungs!” and I say, “this is OUR air that you are polluting”. http://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/25/us/huge-spill-of-hog-waste-fuels-an-old-debate-in-north-carolina.html

@cubilone, Just checked out the trailer and it seems interesting, all about the things we use corn for? corn is such a beautiful plant its no wonder people thought of using it for just about everything… but yes I know what you mean about some people being interested in the idea and others being extremely hostile towards it. But I do firmly believe that everyone is the same, just on a continuum. http://i.imgur.com/iAUwc.jpg “We are one. We just have the same feelings at different times.” Somebody has to be the first person to introduce an idea to somebody, and if it’s gotta be me, so be it. Now obviously, most here have already been introduced to the idea, but unless discussion is continued, the idea will leave. Even if it upsets people, it needs to be discussed.

“Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.” -Albert Einstein