I find our current topic article offensive…
Thats called a simile and is a very different thing to a metaphor (the main one being that the word after "as" in a simile is a literal reference). find a metaphor like that which works and then we’d be talking about the same thing. but as it stands. you’re talking about 2 different things and don’t really understand what they are. so go ahead and beat your drum. bleat like the stupid sheep you are. There’s no talking to you. earlier you claimed that we were engaged in debate. we weren’t. i was laying out how it was and you were going "bah bah bah, my bull dyke mom told me blah blah blah". grow the fuck up, or at least learn how to think.
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^Love it, Rain.
I’m proud to be extremely feminine. And I’m proud of my masculinity as well.
^Martin, it’s funny because that’s exactly right. People see connotations where there aren’t any, even. My manager heard me say “Whateva, I do what I want,” in reference to South Park, and being the dolt he is, proceeded to lecture me on how stupid white people sound when they try to mimic black people…
Yea. I don’t envy some people for their misguided “insight” as to what race has the right to talk a certain way and what race doesn’t. Either way, I’m not about to censor myself from using trivial words such as “yo” or phrases like “what up?” considering the fact that I don’t consciously do it to copy rap artists. Perhaps it’s a subconscious admiration of Snoop Dogg? Who knows.
@Kayne – You definitely struck a nerve, huh? I just want to thank you for your enthusiastic and passionate approach to a subject that is very important to me. You are absolutely right, in my mind. There are many ‘figures of speech’ that are highly offensive and very commonly used, seemingly without thought. Many alternatives could be used in place of those often derrogatory phrases. Sexism is indeed quite prevalent worldwide, not just in western culture. As is racism, homophobia, and religious intolerance.
I do not allow thoughtless use of derogatory phrases to bother me at all. Primarily because I do not allow anyone’s words to degrade me in any way. But I do take notice of these phrases, and wish that people would find a better way of conveying their ideas and thoughts.
When I hear someone get called a ‘pussy’ I don’t interpret that word as a direct blow at my integrity. To me it exemplifies the ignorance, lack of originality, and poor communication skills of the speaker.
Vinn: That’s a very interesting point. I have to admit, when my husband describes a bad football player as “playing like a girl” my shackles do rise. I think these things are not at all intended to offend but we should think about the implications of our analogies.
Kayne is a guy. Welcome to point proven via assumptions. Did you even look at my profile? As for the fighting video, it was meant to be funny, rather then serious. I honestly didn’t expect anyone to answer, as gender discussions until recently never take off. Not anyones fault, we just didn’t have an audience for it in the broader membership who was one during the same times of day as I. The videos are completely separate from my argument, and the fact I’m not writing an article on the subject or in any way making some sort of general public statement with them sort of invalidates your use of them against me. Say I had an extremely sexist profile picture maybe, but a few embedded videos?
And on that note do you have a point somewhere? What invalidates martial skill from my argument anyway? Or the performance of martial skill? To place oneself on the internet as a sports competitor or to compete in live arenas shows a large amount of social security. Again these things are not meant to tied to my argument but at the same time I fail to see how they detract.
What? No. If a person is writing an article, news story, anything at all meant for the general public it is on THEM to write effectively. If you re a writer and you rely on your audience being able to decipher what you wrote, then you are a poor writer. Effective writing is about putting your message across.
Now the exception to that is poetry or other forms of writing which are cryptic by nature. But this was a self help article. Which implies in it’s opening lines we need help to not be childish, physically small and feminine in social interactions, not that people need to not be shy. One cannot equate ‘little girls’ with whatever they want, but it doesn’t change the nature of the article.
I’m sure he could, but I hope he doesn’t explain why.. Kayne, your irrefutable points have been made and we all know what they are, as Lindsay mentioned, even if others refuse to acknowledge them.
And “will you possibly consider that good and bad are just things we fucking made up to please our self-gratifying illusory egos?” was also a great point. We get over our egos, and we’ll solve all our problems.
I’m glad you said it, because I surely didn’t want to. Women and men are different. They are physically built different, and in many ways they are psychologically different. I think the idea of these two things being “equal” is an irrational argument. You can’t ever say an apple and an orange are completely equal, because they are two completely different things. Sure you may find an apple and an orange that weigh the same, but that only makes them equal in weight. Comparing a man to a woman is a similar comparison. It is also illogical to imply that one is inferior, overall, to the other.
@Kayne – you can really take offense to anything, especially if the phrase is meant to be negative. The only way to really keep from offending people is to never use any type of negative language. You could never say that anything is bad or wrong. That is the only way to not offend people. Every statement would need to be objective, expressing that one thing is different than the other; even the word “less” can be taken negatively, and it is used to express measurement and mathematics. So to not offend anyone, you would have to completely remove any type of language that could be considered negative, which would never happen because of the fact that any language can be meant negatively. At my work we say people “have a big neck”, and it just means they are trying to look strong, like a body builder. It’s meant negatively because of that person’s individual actions, not because we think body builders are inferior.
The fact that you believe that the entire world thinks of women as inferior to men is just your negative outlook on the entire world. I personally believe the general population is dumb, that doesn’t mean they are, it just means that’s what I see when I look out my window or drive down the road. Just because you believe something, doesn’t make it so.
I don’t think my age, sex, nationality, ‘race’ or place of origin should count towards anything in cases where other people are being brought down for any reason. If I hear racial slurs on the street I stop and ask that people not use that kind of language loudly in public.
My issue is less that people use this kind of language. It’s a hard unfortunate fact of reality; one I’m trying to change, but I digress.The issue is that it’s out in the open and it’s the first thing a person see’s on our home page. A proper newspaper or business would never run with such a tag line. And if they did, they shouldn’t. What does that say about us as users?
Comparing the idea of being a little girl to anything negatively reflects poorly on children and women. Why does being bad at something imply one is effeminate or young? Frankly this sort of talk sickens me.
* When I said ‘figures of speech that are highly offensive’ what I meant is the potential to be highly offensive. I choose not to take offense, not out of defeat but because I would rather not waste my energy. On a rare occasion I will draw someone’s attention to their careless word usage. But only if I think they will hear me out and at least entertain the idea of being more mindful when they speak.
as a parent who gets to interact with little kids all the time it didn’t even cross my mind to get offended. the real problem with the phrase is that little girls are the most outgoing, friendly people I meet! So, really, we should be more like little girls socially.
Just FYI while I am passionate about this kind of thing, I am not at all butt hurt, or even complaining really. I’m looking for academic and enlightened discussion on the topic. I used our title article as an amazingly circumstantial on hand item to use as example. I bear the author of the article no ill will so to speak, but I do believe the language used in the article is inappropriate.
I believe the entire western world is unintentionally sexist. I can’t speak for other cultures, though as an Asian-Canadian I can say many Asian cultural nuances are misogynistic in nature. I disagree entirely, all sorts of things can be bad and wrong. We have neutral words for things like this, and it’s not like it’s difficult to use them. it’s laziness and programming. No different then when we mean to say something is stupid and we call it ‘gay’ or ‘retarded’. Your example is also flawed because unlike what I am talking about it does not have direct noun reference to a group, only to a body part. That can be taken many ways, heck, misheard they could think you are likening them to a giraffe. If I directly compare myself to a social group in a negative light, I stereotype that entire group. I don’t look at the world as a negative place. I see the world as a rather wondrous place filled with miracles. But it’s also a place filled with imperfections that help define the beauty. I don’t see all people as sexist. I see our culture and society as sexist. The people who may or may not be are victims of their cultural back grounds. I’m not looking to punish, I’m trying to educate. I would agree with many if not all of the points everyone has so far brought to bear in this discussion so far if not for the fact that this isn’t about belief. It’s about facts. The fact is he likened being a little girl to being a bad thing, regardless of the context. The nature of language does not suggest, it defines such a thing as being insulting. I don’t have any ‘faith’ that something wrong was done. I don’t believe it. From a linguistic and empirically scientific stand point I have proven it. No-one has even denied a single on of my points. Just that I shouldn’t be offended seemingly because there isn’t any intent. Well manslaughter is still a person being killed, and without intent you can call down an entire section of the population. It doesn’t make you a bad person, it makes you ignorant about a topic. Refusing to even for a moment reflect on the concepts I’m trying to put forward is a perpetuation of ignorance. Thinking about them and disagreeing with them is fine, but no-one had rebutted a single thing I’ve said. It’s just totally okay to talk and write and be sexist as long as you don;t intend to be? Thats ridiculous.
Calling someone a little girl isn’t an insult. Likening all girls of an undefined age range as being shy, anti-social, unable to converse with others effectives, to be scared of strangers, etc. is. It’s most likely unintentional. But that doesn’t change what it is. Likening anyone to class of person while in the same breath suggesting that such a comparison weakens the individual being likened to the class in question as being less some imaginary norm demeans the class of people involved. If I say I am sick of being lazy like black people and then wrote an upbeat article on being productive while showing pictures of productive white men and women then it would be the same damn insulting mess.
Like Martin and others you are mistaking connotations with clean empirical fact. I am not suggesting that he is taking a bunch of words associated with being feminine, young or effeminate and declaring those things are bad. He is taking a direct, though likely unintentional stab at young women. It’s explicit and direct. It’s not a nuance, or an alliteration or anything of the sort. It’s not even remotely abstract. It is a literal reading, word for word of what was written.
I am incredibly sad to know that is your opinion. In May 4th, 1961 a bus load of white and black civil rights activists challenged that way of thinking. Martin Luthor King challenged that way of thinking. Muhammad Ali, Jackie Robinson, Dr. Emily Howard Stowe, Genevieve Clark and countless others fought most of their adult lives for equality of sex and race, some more invested in one movement over the other. The very attitude you have just expressed is why it won’t ever change in our lifetimes, because people either can’t see the chains or they seem too light to worry bearing. Why would I ever settle on discrimination being a fact of life? I have to admit that it’s there and I refuse to deal with it with my head in the sand. If I have a daughter, I would be ashamed to send her to public school, least she see what kind of a society she would have to live in. I would feel the same for my son, rather then let the ‘facts of life’ like racism, sexism and religious/anti-religious bigotry warp him. Or worse, force him to witness it feeling powerless to stop it. I’m an adult and I don’t feel powerless. If I don’t do my part to end injustices in my society, then why bother getting up in the morning? And yes. I am fully aware that me taking offense is my problem. I am attempting to solve the problem.
Do you know why Wall Street in New York is named the way it is? It’s named for the walls people would chain slaves to, where they would auction men, women and children like cattle. A man could often be heard saying “How much for this nigger?” “Where can I get a good nigger for cooking for me?” “Where is my nigger?” “Where are my niggers?”. Just because a black man uses it for a term of endearment for another black man does not makes that right or even justifiable. Just because it means something different to them does not mean it’s any less representative of what it was originally designed as a word to do. Demean and dehumanize the African. They too suffer from having been conditioned socially into thinking that language is normal. Men died so that way their children would never have to be called niggers again by whites or anyone. Every time a rapper uses it in a song, he’s reminding the listener of where they came from (or rather, that was the original intent), the hardships that their ancestors had to endure at the ends of chains, whips and barrels of guns. Each time I hear a black man or woman use it about anyone it makes me sad to know that there are wars still being fought and lost for the minds of the African-North American. Just because something is popular or common place doesn’t make it right. Again I point to the banality of evil, and the trial of Eichmann.
@ Kayne – you asked “What does that say about us as users?”; It says that we don’t care how other people view our community. The site isn’t meant to please everyone, you are suppose to take away what you can from it, and don’t worry about the rest. What do you think any of the articles in general say about us? If you were worried of how the whole community would look there wouldn’t ever be articles on experimentations with drugs, where to watch tv shows for free, or alternatives to the primary path of spirituality. The community as a whole is about having an open mind, and if someone can’t read an article on the front page without taking offense to the term “little girl”, I’m not sure that they would be able to think objectively enough to even partake in the discussions.
The real point here is, how do you view the article as a whole, is it helpful? If it wasn’t helpful, forget about it, if it was, then don’t pick it apart as though it’s Nazi propaganda.
You’re arguing now that we should be more politically correct about the words we use, as to not offend anyone. The legitimate argument here is that you can’t refute the fact that little girls are the way they are(not social bad asses), you are just suggesting that we not say so in public because it offends people. I am not saying that they are inferior, I’m saying they are untrained, just as much as some of the members of the community are. Would you hire a 24 year old shy man to be a radio host? Or a nine year old girl? I would take neither, and there are very specific reasons for each.
Now, if you would like to argue the fact that little girls are social bad asses, I’m up for that, but as far as the phrase being sexist, I really don’t think it is. It might be stereotyping, but that’s about as far as it goes.
Yes you did say that. You used the analogy of being a little girl to describe being socially inept. And if you can’t see that this is what you have been challenged on I don’t know how I can help you see that. Just accept that I think it was a poor choice of words and I am entitled to that perspective. Probably if you were smart you would admit fault and apologize…but I feel that your pride is getting in the way.
The entire world IS sexist. This is a fact of society. Unless you are an exception and you were raised to recognize the damage just language conditioning then you carry these pre-programmed notions. The very fact that I’m being questioned on this is proof enough that the writer of the article, Martin, very likely yourself (though with a Devil’s Advocate you never know). I am as well, completely without intention and without being fully conscious of it. There is an implied sexism whenever this kind of language is used because it directly equates women negatively. What makes a person actively sexist about it is that when confronted about it, many like Martin seek to justify an easy path instead of doing the hard work; correcting their mistakes or even admitting that they could even be remotely wrong. People don’t MEAN to offend with the language. Not every white person in the 1800s who called a black man a ‘nigger’ was a racist. They didn’t feel superior consciously or hate them. But that didn’t stop them from using the popular language of the time; which was demeaning hate speech. Every time you or someone you know uses this language and you let them do it you reinforced thousands of years of sexist programming where we let over half our population suffer so men can continue in some way to sit at the top of the heap.
We just nod our quiet acceptance and push our buttons, write our memos and serve the next customer. Go on with our lives like nothing that is happening to the women around us is wrong. But unless we all start recognizing our unhealthy attitudes, our outlooks and work to change them we are no better then the people actively bringing down the rights of women. Because we are unwittingly helping people socially, mentally and sexually subjugate people. I for one want no part of that kind of disgusting system.
No I didn’t look at your profile, but after taking a quick look I wouldn’t have read that novel you wrote about yourself anyways. Yes I did assume you were a girl because of the argument you were making, but your picture also looks kind of feminine.
As for the videos why include them if you didn’t have a reason to do so? My point was that those videos in no way help your argument and also that it seems you did get a little butt hurt. Finding offense in tiny little things is for people who don’t have more important shit to do. However, you did use “butt hurt,” one of my favorite phrases, so I guess I can stop hating so hard.
Martin, I think you are missing the point and going off on some fairly unrelated tangents. You were challenged for saying little girls are socially inept. Personally this doesn’t offend me as I know it’s nonsense and I can rise above it. However, I believe you owe it to Kayne and others to admit this was probably not a good choice of words on your part.
The way your first post is written it could be ambiguously stated you agree with me over Martin and can rise above the situation, agree with Martin over me and you see my argument as nonsense, or agree with Martin but still see my statements as valid, but that our argument is nonsense.