I find our current topic article offensive…
Thats called a simile and is a very different thing to a metaphor (the main one being that the word after "as" in a simile is a literal reference). find a metaphor like that which works and then we’d be talking about the same thing. but as it stands. you’re talking about 2 different things and don’t really understand what they are. so go ahead and beat your drum. bleat like the stupid sheep you are. There’s no talking to you. earlier you claimed that we were engaged in debate. we weren’t. i was laying out how it was and you were going "bah bah bah, my bull dyke mom told me blah blah blah". grow the fuck up, or at least learn how to think.
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Wow I love all this! Both sides of this argument are very well structured & valid in themselves. I just hope you guys are able to see that & not really getting upset with each other. @ “Martin’s side”—there’s nothing you can do about someone taking offense to something (“I’m responsible for what I say, but I’m not responsible for what you understand”). Just like Kayne said, “that’s their problem.” (so in that logic, your offense here is your problem Kayne :) and I’m not trying to be offensive please don’t take it like that!). @ Kayne, you’re right about what you say.. but there’s nothing to get upset about it’s just the way it is. I’m a woman.. I know there’s stereotypes-I know I match up with some, and I don’t with others. If it upsets you that stinks…bc chances are that the “world views” on sexism won’t change it your lifetime. I sooooo respect your passion on the topic though.. and I’m sure you have turned some heads & changed the world around you in a step in a positive direction on the topic. I think you guys are all awesome!!
*Edit–when I was quoting you Kayne about saying ‘that’s their problem’ if they’re offended–I was referring to your last post on the Gender Roles discussion-sorry for any confusion
Funny kirsten cos i never said that. this discussion evolved into a discussion of literal interpretations regardless of context. which ironically is exactly what you’ve done.
step 1 read the featured article
step 2 read the content of this thread
step 3 tell someone who cares cos you just exposed yourself as someone who values their own opinion so greatly that they don’t even bother to see if they are talking about the same thing or not. you’re the one on an unrelated tangent.
“I’m not looking for an argument. I,m looking for discussion. Martin, Russ and I were discussing it, albeit a debate format. However it WAS and IS still only discussion.”
Call it what you want. It is what it is. I’m saying it’s a pointless conceptual debate because morality is relative to the specific situation. Is one life a joy if all it brings is suffering? And is one death a tragedy if it saves the lives of thousands?
You can’t force your morality on others any more than parents can stop their kids from saying curse words. The real change will happen on the inside, unless we focus our energy on external symbols and thus become idealistically engrossed in the illusions of concept and moral value.
There is a distinct equating of femininity with weakness or inadequacy present in that use of language. it’s everywhere and it’s disgusting. It’s not just literal, it’s subversive. It’s demeaning. It’s easy to say it’s not because you are not offended by it or blind to it. But it’s there. Once it was okay to relate Africans to laziness and criminals. It was the easiest thing to do at the time, because everyone was racist so no-one in the major controlling interest was upset by it. When it was ever pointed out during the Civil Rights movement, people gave very similar answers to yours.
Now everyone is sexist. We are raised to be. Men are victims of this as well, raised to perpetuate the cycle of weakness and inadequacy that haunts our mothers, sisters, cousins, nieces and daughters. They never feel pretty enough, small enough, large breasted enough, tall or short enough. Too muscular, too fat, to thickly built, not thickly built enough in just the right places. And if they are? It’s almost never enough. But point out sexism to the modern man and he usually see’s little harm in his use of language concerning women. Calling people a pussy equates them to the female sexual organ because we don’t use the word for cats or felines. We use it to describe fearful people and female genitalia because we reinforce the idea that all women are fearful. This isn’t about intent. This is about ignorance. Ignorance of both the consistent patriarchal influence we see in society and the fact that we can do all kinds of things to stop it. We chose not to because it’s easy to rebuke with poorly constructed arguments like your own. Nuance in language and communication is a fine example of hiding from fact. By saying that it’s easy to insult some people to get your point across to others isn’t acceptable. It’s admission of guilt and indifference to hatred. Welcome to the banality of evil. Eichmann anyone?
Faggot is a slur originating in Europe for homosexuals, we in North America didn’t generate it. The burning of homosexuals was common practice once upon a time and so they equated them to wood an kindling, dehumanizing them. Making it easier to kill them without moral compulsion. People still use it here in North America to demean homosexuals and compare people to them by calling them it as an insult. It is still common place to call cigarettes fags and faggots but not because they burn. It’s because gay, effeminate men smoked them, and women did to. That slang remains as another constant reminder of gender and sexual orientation being linguistically frowned on.
How is it any different then any other discussion on this website?
Okay. I’m off to write my “I’m Sick of Being as Lazy as Niggers” article. Because literal interpretation clearly isn’t important. I’m not expressing stereotypes and racial prejudice. I just hate being lazy.
Because that’s the standpoint of a morally and culturally bankrupt person.
It’s not about what OTHER people think of us. It’s about what we should be thinking of ourselves. It’s about the attitude we should have as free thinkers. Subversive use of language is one of the biggest chains still crippling the minds of the western world and while the article is hardly the worst example, use of gender bias expression and hate speech still pervade as acceptable in our societies. I don’t need to argue that little girls are social bad asses. Broad over arching remarks like that are often incorrect. However I am sure some little girls are social bad asses. And some are not. It is unfair in the nature of the statement to rule out all ‘little girls’ as being not. It excludes a gender, a height and an age range from being good at something. Thats the nature of the language which I am having an issue with.
its about connotations. the “ugly” words are ugly because of what they are actually implying. niggar is about the most ugly word in the world. not because it was used as a term for black people. but because its use is synonymous with oppression and slavery. Today its a word thats slipping back into common use by comedians and kids who admire black people they idolise. posters on bedroom walls that say “yo niggaz” or something to that effect. and in america black people use it regularly as a term of endeerment towards their black friends. its been claimed by black people cos thats how you defuse the hate of a word. you take it. you make it your own. you change the meaning. its why censorship literally doesn’t work. Its the nuance that matters. not the initial position of the word. it makes zero sense to censor a word if the intent of it still exists.
but well here’s the thing. because we spend so much time talking and communicating language becomes so ingrained in peoples consciousness that they think they actually mean something in and of themselves. they don’t. the intent behind them is whats significant. the word itself being wholly insignificant in comparison. do you think your subconscious thinks in words? cos thats where your internal nuance exists. thats where the intent of your words are. its why you have freudian slips. and sometimes you even say things you don’t mean… but ya really do. or sometimes associations you have with things are completely different to other peoples because of the connotations and nuance.
When i was younger i thought the word JEW was a derogatory term like niggar because we have no jew population here. the only context i had ever heard that word used in was movies about nazis. When i heard jews using the word in other tv shows i always thought it was just jews that could use it.
I highly recommend becoming disillusioned with language. you free yourself from taking all kinds of “offence” that there is no justification for, only backwards rationalisations. its like when people talk about the irish they sometimes call us paddys. but there’s a massive difference between a “paddy!” and a “Fuckin paddy”.
I’m not looking for an argument. I,m looking for discussion. Martin, Russ and I were discussing it, albeit a debate format. However it WAS and IS still only discussion.
It`s the topic sentence. It’s what the entirety of an article or essay should be judged on to some degree on it’s effectiveness and appropriateness. Not only is being a girl/woman, child or small totally not mutually inclusive to the idea of not being a ‘bad ass’ (social or otherwise), but through use of pictures, role models and language through the article it only compounds the nature of the opening statement.
Oh and 1 I read the article
and 2 I read the thread.
And 3: Opiions don’t really matter that much to me. But by your reaction to my comments I can see that you come from a very EGO-based position, Martin.
ps. I didn’t expose anything about myself except for my honesty.
I was just thinking, is it possible to be offended by something that isn’t directed at you? If someone calls me a dumb (please excuse my words), Jew; for example. I can’t really take offense to that, for I am not a Jewish person. I can say, “That is offensive,” But I cannot really take offense to that.
Also, when we look at the article in question, we can see that the writer is not being a serious douche about it. He is just making a common, light hearted joke using a saying that will probably never go away.
I feel sorry for anyone who takes offense to this (not trying to be a dick), but really? We have a five page argument about someone using the term “little girl.” It is not offensive to say a little girl is weak, because it’s a fact. they are weak compared to most people. Little boys are weak too, but when you compare body and muscle mass, the average man have more then the average woman. Don’t get mad at me or anyone else about it, It’s just fact. So it’s not so much a statement that little girls suck at being social, but it compares the fact that little girls are physically weak. The article is saying that you shouldn’t be weak, using a little girl as an analogy. it has been used a million times before, and nothing will make this saying go away. It’s really not a big deal. It really, really isn’t. Seriously. Please trust me :)
In conclusion, a grown man can’t be offended by the saying “little girl,” unless he himself is, or used to be a little girl. But you can think it is offensive. Just proper wording makes a big difference in my opinion. (again, not trying to be a dick, sorry if I am coming off that way, just putting my opinions).
I’ll play the devil’s advocate –
Kayne, what is your suggestion? What words or phrases could be used in place of the one mentioned which offends you so much? Does another phrase really get the point across to the reader?
The fact that you also just stereotyped the entire world by saying “Now everyone is sexist” should offend me, based on the fact that the phrase is literally suggesting that: I believe that men are superior, and women should stay in the kitchen a cook pies and raise children. If it were meant literally, then you would be suggesting that you personally are sexist. There is a big difference between literal meaning, and linguistic meaning, so don’t get them mixed up.
And another thing, You mentioned that: “By saying that it’s easy to insult some people to get your point across to others isn’t acceptable.”; is it actually insulting a little girl to suggest that a grown adult(those who are members of this site) are stronger? I myself would think it would be irrational to believe that any of the members of this site are less adequate at tackling any task than a female, or even male, under the age of… lets say 10 years old; and yes that is what I inferred from the word “little”. So would you be just as upset if the phrase was “are you tired of being a little boy when it comes to social situations?” – I would say on average little boys don’t understand how to handle most social situations and would be just as inadequate as a little girl, compared to a grown adult. So do you believe that the phrase is comparing a little girl to a little boy, or to a grown adult? The relative meaning, intended audience, and surrounding text, of the phrase actually determines whether or not the phrase is sexist, just because the words “little girl” are used, does not equate to it being sexist remark.
Sexism – The belief that one sex (usually the male) is naturally superior to the other and should dominate most important areas of political, economic, and social life.
“The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy”
I joined this site just because I found it ridiculous that someone felt so offended by such a silly thing that they decided to complain online. Anyways, I only read a few of Kayne’s arguments because they were boring, but the first videos she posted were the best. She clearly wants to show how tough and badass women can be. You think ay of those women could beat a male pro fighter in their weight class? If you answered yes you need to sit down and watch some K-1/ UFC. There are plenty of examples of things women can do better then men but she picked fighting like a fucking idiot. If I came into this argument thinking Martin was being an asshole I would probably support the whole “lets stop using little girl in a negative way” thing. Until then I hope Kayne stops shitting her pants over nothing.
Yeah no doubt.. Let’s let this discussion disappear now. If you aren’t prepared to use this website to help other people achieve their bliss, don’t use it please. No hard feelings, this site just wasn’t made for anything else :)
@ Martin Boo-yah! *edit I did just watch all the videos & they were pretty powerful. Thank you Kayne! I have to agree with her, when anyone calls me a bitch it’s the only word that stops me dead in my tracks :) Yet, it’s just a word. I really like this discussion.
I think this discussion as a whole is being taken too seriously, once someone starts pointing fingers the discussion completely switches from objective to subjective and loses any validity.
I think that if someone is very sexist and calls said person “Little Girl” meaning “you should have been a girl because you’re a wimp” that is uncalled for. On the other hand if you’re not truly sexist and are just playfully trying to coax one of your friends into doing something, I see no harm in that. Words are all about context, and even more tone of voice, so to say a phrase is bad or immoral without any context or situation is just pointless in my opinion.