I find our current topic article offensive…
Thats called a simile and is a very different thing to a metaphor (the main one being that the word after "as" in a simile is a literal reference). find a metaphor like that which works and then we’d be talking about the same thing. but as it stands. you’re talking about 2 different things and don’t really understand what they are. so go ahead and beat your drum. bleat like the stupid sheep you are. There’s no talking to you. earlier you claimed that we were engaged in debate. we weren’t. i was laying out how it was and you were going "bah bah bah, my bull dyke mom told me blah blah blah". grow the fuck up, or at least learn how to think.
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I think this discussion as a whole is being taken too seriously, once someone starts pointing fingers the discussion completely switches from objective to subjective and loses any validity.
I think that if someone is very sexist and calls said person “Little Girl” meaning “you should have been a girl because you’re a wimp” that is uncalled for. On the other hand if you’re not truly sexist and are just playfully trying to coax one of your friends into doing something, I see no harm in that. Words are all about context, and even more tone of voice, so to say a phrase is bad or immoral without any context or situation is just pointless in my opinion.
All well and good to think that way in the current mindset of society. But the subversive nature of language is still present. Every time you do it, you acknowledge the stereotype and reinforce it. It’s less harsh then raw sexism or racism, but it’s still the same thing and part of the same problem.
I don’t think my age, sex, nationality, ‘race’ or place of origin should count towards anything in cases where other people are being brought down for any reason. If I hear racial slurs on the street I stop and ask that people not use that kind of language loudly in public.
My issue is less that people use this kind of language. It’s a hard unfortunate fact of reality; one I’m trying to change, but I digress.The issue is that it’s out in the open and it’s the first thing a person see’s on our home page. A proper newspaper or business would never run with such a tag line. And if they did, they shouldn’t. What does that say about us as users?
@ Kayne – you asked “What does that say about us as users?”; It says that we don’t care how other people view our community. The site isn’t meant to please everyone, you are suppose to take away what you can from it, and don’t worry about the rest. What do you think any of the articles in general say about us? If you were worried of how the whole community would look there wouldn’t ever be articles on experimentations with drugs, where to watch tv shows for free, or alternatives to the primary path of spirituality. The community as a whole is about having an open mind, and if someone can’t read an article on the front page without taking offense to the term “little girl”, I’m not sure that they would be able to think objectively enough to even partake in the discussions.
The real point here is, how do you view the article as a whole, is it helpful? If it wasn’t helpful, forget about it, if it was, then don’t pick it apart as though it’s Nazi propaganda.
You’re arguing now that we should be more politically correct about the words we use, as to not offend anyone. The legitimate argument here is that you can’t refute the fact that little girls are the way they are(not social bad asses), you are just suggesting that we not say so in public because it offends people. I am not saying that they are inferior, I’m saying they are untrained, just as much as some of the members of the community are. Would you hire a 24 year old shy man to be a radio host? Or a nine year old girl? I would take neither, and there are very specific reasons for each.
Now, if you would like to argue the fact that little girls are social bad asses, I’m up for that, but as far as the phrase being sexist, I really don’t think it is. It might be stereotyping, but that’s about as far as it goes.
My hat’s off to Martin, Rain, & everyone else who recognizes that communication is about expression & isn’t necessarily about the literal interpretation.
While you are entitled to your viewpoints, Kanye, I would suggest manning up a bit(how’s that for sexist?) and not take offense at every itty bitty perceived “slight” against the fairer sex. The political correctness of this whole discussion is ridiculous, bordering on fanaticism. We have freedom of expression. You are bound to be routinely offended if you wish to take it at every turn. I’ll leave you with one of my grandfather’s favorite and oft-used quotes: “Don’t take offense & don’t give offense. But you can build a fence if you’d like.”
I take offense, to people being offended, by things no one should be offended by. I’m not going to make a big fuss and cry over someone calling me a stupid, cracker, whitey, or anything. Who cares? Don’t let dumb, little things ruffle your feathers. You will live much more happily :)
“I’m not looking for an argument. I,m looking for discussion. Martin, Russ and I were discussing it, albeit a debate format. However it WAS and IS still only discussion.”
Call it what you want. It is what it is. I’m saying it’s a pointless conceptual debate because morality is relative to the specific situation. Is one life a joy if all it brings is suffering? And is one death a tragedy if it saves the lives of thousands?
You can’t force your morality on others any more than parents can stop their kids from saying curse words. The real change will happen on the inside, unless we focus our energy on external symbols and thus become idealistically engrossed in the illusions of concept and moral value.
How is it any different then any other discussion on this website?
Okay. I’m off to write my “I’m Sick of Being as Lazy as Niggers” article. Because literal interpretation clearly isn’t important. I’m not expressing stereotypes and racial prejudice. I just hate being lazy.
Because that’s the standpoint of a morally and culturally bankrupt person.
It’s not about what OTHER people think of us. It’s about what we should be thinking of ourselves. It’s about the attitude we should have as free thinkers. Subversive use of language is one of the biggest chains still crippling the minds of the western world and while the article is hardly the worst example, use of gender bias expression and hate speech still pervade as acceptable in our societies. I don’t need to argue that little girls are social bad asses. Broad over arching remarks like that are often incorrect. However I am sure some little girls are social bad asses. And some are not. It is unfair in the nature of the statement to rule out all ‘little girls’ as being not. It excludes a gender, a height and an age range from being good at something. Thats the nature of the language which I am having an issue with.
I was just thinking, is it possible to be offended by something that isn’t directed at you? If someone calls me a dumb (please excuse my words), Jew; for example. I can’t really take offense to that, for I am not a Jewish person. I can say, “That is offensive,” But I cannot really take offense to that.
Also, when we look at the article in question, we can see that the writer is not being a serious douche about it. He is just making a common, light hearted joke using a saying that will probably never go away.
I feel sorry for anyone who takes offense to this (not trying to be a dick), but really? We have a five page argument about someone using the term “little girl.” It is not offensive to say a little girl is weak, because it’s a fact. they are weak compared to most people. Little boys are weak too, but when you compare body and muscle mass, the average man have more then the average woman. Don’t get mad at me or anyone else about it, It’s just fact. So it’s not so much a statement that little girls suck at being social, but it compares the fact that little girls are physically weak. The article is saying that you shouldn’t be weak, using a little girl as an analogy. it has been used a million times before, and nothing will make this saying go away. It’s really not a big deal. It really, really isn’t. Seriously. Please trust me :)
In conclusion, a grown man can’t be offended by the saying “little girl,” unless he himself is, or used to be a little girl. But you can think it is offensive. Just proper wording makes a big difference in my opinion. (again, not trying to be a dick, sorry if I am coming off that way, just putting my opinions).
Martin, Rain, russ… you all have beautiful minds I would like to share and discuss ideals with.
Don’t fill your mind with petty arguments over this hypothetical debate; every thought you let into your mind may/will eventually become a component in a new thought down the line. Don’t let these rogue arguments corrupt your mind. Sometimes poor arguments aren’t worth consideration. You all made your points early in the thread and your additional replies were almost superfluous against the alternative viewpoint.
@Kayne – You definitely struck a nerve, huh? I just want to thank you for your enthusiastic and passionate approach to a subject that is very important to me. You are absolutely right, in my mind. There are many ‘figures of speech’ that are highly offensive and very commonly used, seemingly without thought. Many alternatives could be used in place of those often derrogatory phrases. Sexism is indeed quite prevalent worldwide, not just in western culture. As is racism, homophobia, and religious intolerance.
I do not allow thoughtless use of derogatory phrases to bother me at all. Primarily because I do not allow anyone’s words to degrade me in any way. But I do take notice of these phrases, and wish that people would find a better way of conveying their ideas and thoughts.
When I hear someone get called a ‘pussy’ I don’t interpret that word as a direct blow at my integrity. To me it exemplifies the ignorance, lack of originality, and poor communication skills of the speaker.
* When I said ‘figures of speech that are highly offensive’ what I meant is the potential to be highly offensive. I choose not to take offense, not out of defeat but because I would rather not waste my energy. On a rare occasion I will draw someone’s attention to their careless word usage. But only if I think they will hear me out and at least entertain the idea of being more mindful when they speak.
Kayne yes people have refuted what you’re saying, but frankly I don’t think they have to because you’re being such a whiny bitch and are so attached to your argument that no one is making any headway. Kevin is right, and while he may not want to be a dick about it I’ll lay this out for you. No grown man defends your position and ignores the emotional and psychological differences between chicks and dudes like you unless they are pussies (Yes Lindasy I saw your thoughts on the word pussy and that I must be ignorant, but look at the context. I mean pussy, not literally a vagina.)
Sometimes you have to be a dick when other people are being pussies. It balances the universe.
Sorry, but I don’t think he’s seen the error of his ways
“What makes me sad is that no-one can refute what I’m saying. Just that it’s totally okay.”
exercise in futility – attempt to force conceptually derived morality/values on others
“To equate a derived meaning with a literal interpretation is sickeningly offensive to me and i find it to be about the most shallow form of thinking but hey, i guess its a matter of taste.
There is nuance in concept and communication is 100% concept”
“Once it was okay to relate Africans to laziness and criminals.
This isn’t about intent. This is about ignorance.”
race is a completely different issue because it deals in a superiority complex based on the idea that the color of your skin determines the potential of your mind.
sexism is more of a psychological problem that was taught into the minds of western culture because of an imbalance towards the masculine mentality
this is a futile discussion because you can’t heal sexism through debate. why would you try here of all places? I am certain that NO ONE ON HE IS A SEXIST
the best place to look for sense on the issue of sexism in this particular case is the women on this site
“There is nothing wrong with a woman who WANTS to be more masculine, who wants to be more equal with men. But to say that men and women are equal in general is, in my opinion, a complete fallacy. Men and women are VERY different physically to say the least, and IMO, a woman should be PROUD to BE a WOMAN!
I disagree with the suggestion that referring to someone as a little girl is an insult, and instead, is merely a categorization. Little girls by nature are naive, innocent, soft, loving, and timid, while being talkative, outgoing, and wily at the same time. The description of “Being a little girl when meeting new people” is not offensive unless you are the type to purposely seek out offense in anything possibly gender related. ”
did you consider this at all kanye? or did you just conceptualize more? let us seee
“The people who may or may not be are victims of their cultural back grounds. I’m not looking to punish, I’m trying to educate.”
I think your trying to intellectually subjugate
“It’s about facts. The fact is he likened being a little girl to being a bad thing, regardless of the context.”
will you possibly consider that good and bad are just things we fucking made up to please our self-gratifying illusory egos?
“It’s just totally okay to talk and write and be sexist as long as you don;t intend to be? Thats ridiculous.”
yes it is. ridiculous as it may seem, sexism is not something you participate randomly in through conjunctions of words in menial conversations. sexism is paying women less than men for the same work. sexism is keeping females from voting or being free to do whatever they want to do same as everyone else.
insults are subjective
strength and weakness are subjective concepts (WE MADE THEM UP)
physical strength has nothing to do with sexism
“Likening anyone to class of person while in the same breath suggesting that such a comparison weakens the individual being likened to the class in question as being less some imaginary norm demeans the class of people involved”
it only demeans them if they let it affect them. you cant cure sexism by disputing petty conceptual details. sexists will not stop being sexists through you nitpicking connotations of verbiage, even if you really were confronting actual sexists here, WHICH YOUR NOT
you say these idealistic nitpickings are valid because they are based on your presumptuous “empirical fact”, but it seems to me you are just in the business of putting words in other peoples mouths
“He is taking a direct, though likely unintentional stab at young women. It’s explicit and direct”
Maybe it’s explicit and direct for you because you subjectively took offense but that doesn’t make it a stab at anyone because, as I said, strength and weakness are made up concepts that are relative to what we think is good or bad. Some could have taken it as a stab, but those who have BEEN little girls have told you how wrong you are and that it was just a categorization based on a stereotype used as a literary device.
“If you re a writer and you rely on your audience being able to decipher what you wrote, then you are a poor writer.”
it’s easily decipherable because it was a good literary device that calls on a stereotype we can relate to. therefore, it would make him a good writer (STOP OVER-CONCEPTUALIZING)
stop trying to change the language because the language is just an effect of the real problem which you are not addressing in this discussion because your distracted by petty word games
“I feel sorry for anyone who takes offense to this (not trying to be a dick), but really? We have a five page argument about someone using the term “little girl.” It is not offensive to say a little girl is weak, because it’s a fact. they are weak compared to most people. Little boys are weak too, but when you compare body and muscle mass, the average man have more then the average woman. Don’t get mad at me or anyone else about it, It’s just fact. So it’s not so much a statement that little girls suck at being social, but it compares the fact that little girls are physically weak. The article is saying that you shouldn’t be weak, using a little girl as an analogy. it has been used a million times before, and nothing will make this saying go away. It’s really not a big deal. It really, really isn’t. Seriously. Please trust me :)”
How can you think this has not been refuted?
I’m sure he could, but I hope he doesn’t explain why.. Kayne, your irrefutable points have been made and we all know what they are, as Lindsay mentioned, even if others refuse to acknowledge them.
And “will you possibly consider that good and bad are just things we fucking made up to please our self-gratifying illusory egos?” was also a great point. We get over our egos, and we’ll solve all our problems.