I find our current topic article offensive…
Thats called a simile and is a very different thing to a metaphor (the main one being that the word after "as" in a simile is a literal reference). find a metaphor like that which works and then we’d be talking about the same thing. but as it stands. you’re talking about 2 different things and don’t really understand what they are. so go ahead and beat your drum. bleat like the stupid sheep you are. There’s no talking to you. earlier you claimed that we were engaged in debate. we weren’t. i was laying out how it was and you were going "bah bah bah, my bull dyke mom told me blah blah blah". grow the fuck up, or at least learn how to think.
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Martin, Rain, russ… you all have beautiful minds I would like to share and discuss ideals with.
Don’t fill your mind with petty arguments over this hypothetical debate; every thought you let into your mind may/will eventually become a component in a new thought down the line. Don’t let these rogue arguments corrupt your mind. Sometimes poor arguments aren’t worth consideration. You all made your points early in the thread and your additional replies were almost superfluous against the alternative viewpoint.
Ok, Kayne, I will argue your point. You stated that “The fact is he likened being a little girl to being a bad thing, regardless of the context.”; Which is not actually correct. He likened being a little girl to being shy. It is up to the reader to determine whether or not they find shyness, or being like a little girl, as bad or negative. You said yourself that he could have restated the question as “Are you tired of being shy?” – paraphrased. So now we have taken our own meaning which is that little girls are shy. Little girls could also be hyper, talkative, and even manipulative(some girls learn early). Now, what I have just done is stereotyped little girls (still going with under the age of 10) into a category having the previously stated traits. If those traits are incorrect as for the average, please inform me. No one said that any of those traits were bad, except you. The article is actually posing a question and giving advice for those of whom said “yes, I am tired of being shy.”.
Remember that stereotypes do not mean that every person in the group has the associated qualities, just the average. It is a generalization, meaning that it has general application, not absolute application.
I’m guessing your next response will be something to the degree that, the writer of the article is directly relating being a little girl to being a bad thing by saying “are you tired of being a little girl”. To this I say “are you tired of being smart?” “are you tired of being attractive?” “are you tired of having money, and being able to buy things?”. – I used such extreme examples to illustrate that any word or words put into the phrase in place of “little girl”, could then be taken negatively; or not, it all depends on the reader. I hope you are aware that some people are actually tired of being attractive, tired of being smart, or tired of having money. – each of these comes with it’s own positive and negative side.
Sorry, but I don’t think he’s seen the error of his ways
“What makes me sad is that no-one can refute what I’m saying. Just that it’s totally okay.”
exercise in futility – attempt to force conceptually derived morality/values on others
“To equate a derived meaning with a literal interpretation is sickeningly offensive to me and i find it to be about the most shallow form of thinking but hey, i guess its a matter of taste.
There is nuance in concept and communication is 100% concept”
“Once it was okay to relate Africans to laziness and criminals.
This isn’t about intent. This is about ignorance.”
race is a completely different issue because it deals in a superiority complex based on the idea that the color of your skin determines the potential of your mind.
sexism is more of a psychological problem that was taught into the minds of western culture because of an imbalance towards the masculine mentality
this is a futile discussion because you can’t heal sexism through debate. why would you try here of all places? I am certain that NO ONE ON HE IS A SEXIST
the best place to look for sense on the issue of sexism in this particular case is the women on this site
“There is nothing wrong with a woman who WANTS to be more masculine, who wants to be more equal with men. But to say that men and women are equal in general is, in my opinion, a complete fallacy. Men and women are VERY different physically to say the least, and IMO, a woman should be PROUD to BE a WOMAN!
I disagree with the suggestion that referring to someone as a little girl is an insult, and instead, is merely a categorization. Little girls by nature are naive, innocent, soft, loving, and timid, while being talkative, outgoing, and wily at the same time. The description of “Being a little girl when meeting new people” is not offensive unless you are the type to purposely seek out offense in anything possibly gender related. ”
did you consider this at all kanye? or did you just conceptualize more? let us seee
“The people who may or may not be are victims of their cultural back grounds. I’m not looking to punish, I’m trying to educate.”
I think your trying to intellectually subjugate
“It’s about facts. The fact is he likened being a little girl to being a bad thing, regardless of the context.”
will you possibly consider that good and bad are just things we fucking made up to please our self-gratifying illusory egos?
“It’s just totally okay to talk and write and be sexist as long as you don;t intend to be? Thats ridiculous.”
yes it is. ridiculous as it may seem, sexism is not something you participate randomly in through conjunctions of words in menial conversations. sexism is paying women less than men for the same work. sexism is keeping females from voting or being free to do whatever they want to do same as everyone else.
insults are subjective
strength and weakness are subjective concepts (WE MADE THEM UP)
physical strength has nothing to do with sexism
“Likening anyone to class of person while in the same breath suggesting that such a comparison weakens the individual being likened to the class in question as being less some imaginary norm demeans the class of people involved”
it only demeans them if they let it affect them. you cant cure sexism by disputing petty conceptual details. sexists will not stop being sexists through you nitpicking connotations of verbiage, even if you really were confronting actual sexists here, WHICH YOUR NOT
you say these idealistic nitpickings are valid because they are based on your presumptuous “empirical fact”, but it seems to me you are just in the business of putting words in other peoples mouths
“He is taking a direct, though likely unintentional stab at young women. It’s explicit and direct”
Maybe it’s explicit and direct for you because you subjectively took offense but that doesn’t make it a stab at anyone because, as I said, strength and weakness are made up concepts that are relative to what we think is good or bad. Some could have taken it as a stab, but those who have BEEN little girls have told you how wrong you are and that it was just a categorization based on a stereotype used as a literary device.
“If you re a writer and you rely on your audience being able to decipher what you wrote, then you are a poor writer.”
it’s easily decipherable because it was a good literary device that calls on a stereotype we can relate to. therefore, it would make him a good writer (STOP OVER-CONCEPTUALIZING)
stop trying to change the language because the language is just an effect of the real problem which you are not addressing in this discussion because your distracted by petty word games
“I feel sorry for anyone who takes offense to this (not trying to be a dick), but really? We have a five page argument about someone using the term “little girl.” It is not offensive to say a little girl is weak, because it’s a fact. they are weak compared to most people. Little boys are weak too, but when you compare body and muscle mass, the average man have more then the average woman. Don’t get mad at me or anyone else about it, It’s just fact. So it’s not so much a statement that little girls suck at being social, but it compares the fact that little girls are physically weak. The article is saying that you shouldn’t be weak, using a little girl as an analogy. it has been used a million times before, and nothing will make this saying go away. It’s really not a big deal. It really, really isn’t. Seriously. Please trust me :)”
How can you think this has not been refuted?
1. I have seen and love the Vlogs of Amber, who posted the response to the Beyonce video.
2. I am a woman, and I completely happy with the parts of me that ARE weaker, softer, and more feminine than that of my male counterparts. I was born a girl, and I was never forced into BEING a “girly” girl, but instead, was a rough and tumble kid who played ball ( all sports, lol) with the boys, could catch a horse in our field and go riding holding onto a mane only, and could outclimb, outshoot, and likely out fight any boy I knew growing up, especially if I resorted to “female” tricks and utilized what I naturally am.
3. There is nothing wrong with a woman who WANTS to be more masculine, who wants to be more equal with men. But to say that men and women are equal in general is, in my opinion, a complete fallacy. Men and women are VERY different physically to say the least, and IMO, a woman should be PROUD to BE a WOMAN!
4. I disagree with the suggestion that referring to someone as a little girl is an insult, and instead, is merely a categorization. Little girls by nature are naive, innocent, soft, loving, and timid, while being talkative, outgoing, and wily at the same time. The description of “Being a little girl when meeting new people” is not offensive unless you are the type to purposely seek out offense in anything possibly gender related. Little girls are OFTEN nervous and shy around new people, despite their tendency to be hyper and their desire to impress and for approval. That is all an outward display of their desire to be liked, loved, accepted, and protected, which is an INBORN trait in MOST of the girls I have encountered in my life. I am a mother to 2 gorgeous girls and the step mom to another, and I would MUCH rather have my girls proceed through their early years guarded, timid, and over analytical of things than I would they rush headlong into impulsive things like boys are wont to do.
All well and good to think that way in the current mindset of society. But the subversive nature of language is still present. Every time you do it, you acknowledge the stereotype and reinforce it. It’s less harsh then raw sexism or racism, but it’s still the same thing and part of the same problem.
^Love it, Rain.
I’m proud to be extremely feminine. And I’m proud of my masculinity as well.
^Martin, it’s funny because that’s exactly right. People see connotations where there aren’t any, even. My manager heard me say “Whateva, I do what I want,” in reference to South Park, and being the dolt he is, proceeded to lecture me on how stupid white people sound when they try to mimic black people…
Yea. I don’t envy some people for their misguided “insight” as to what race has the right to talk a certain way and what race doesn’t. Either way, I’m not about to censor myself from using trivial words such as “yo” or phrases like “what up?” considering the fact that I don’t consciously do it to copy rap artists. Perhaps it’s a subconscious admiration of Snoop Dogg? Who knows.
@Kayne – You definitely struck a nerve, huh? I just want to thank you for your enthusiastic and passionate approach to a subject that is very important to me. You are absolutely right, in my mind. There are many ‘figures of speech’ that are highly offensive and very commonly used, seemingly without thought. Many alternatives could be used in place of those often derrogatory phrases. Sexism is indeed quite prevalent worldwide, not just in western culture. As is racism, homophobia, and religious intolerance.
I do not allow thoughtless use of derogatory phrases to bother me at all. Primarily because I do not allow anyone’s words to degrade me in any way. But I do take notice of these phrases, and wish that people would find a better way of conveying their ideas and thoughts.
When I hear someone get called a ‘pussy’ I don’t interpret that word as a direct blow at my integrity. To me it exemplifies the ignorance, lack of originality, and poor communication skills of the speaker.
Vinn: That’s a very interesting point. I have to admit, when my husband describes a bad football player as “playing like a girl” my shackles do rise. I think these things are not at all intended to offend but we should think about the implications of our analogies.
Kayne is a guy. Welcome to point proven via assumptions. Did you even look at my profile? As for the fighting video, it was meant to be funny, rather then serious. I honestly didn’t expect anyone to answer, as gender discussions until recently never take off. Not anyones fault, we just didn’t have an audience for it in the broader membership who was one during the same times of day as I. The videos are completely separate from my argument, and the fact I’m not writing an article on the subject or in any way making some sort of general public statement with them sort of invalidates your use of them against me. Say I had an extremely sexist profile picture maybe, but a few embedded videos?
And on that note do you have a point somewhere? What invalidates martial skill from my argument anyway? Or the performance of martial skill? To place oneself on the internet as a sports competitor or to compete in live arenas shows a large amount of social security. Again these things are not meant to tied to my argument but at the same time I fail to see how they detract.
What? No. If a person is writing an article, news story, anything at all meant for the general public it is on THEM to write effectively. If you re a writer and you rely on your audience being able to decipher what you wrote, then you are a poor writer. Effective writing is about putting your message across.
Now the exception to that is poetry or other forms of writing which are cryptic by nature. But this was a self help article. Which implies in it’s opening lines we need help to not be childish, physically small and feminine in social interactions, not that people need to not be shy. One cannot equate ‘little girls’ with whatever they want, but it doesn’t change the nature of the article.
I’m sure he could, but I hope he doesn’t explain why.. Kayne, your irrefutable points have been made and we all know what they are, as Lindsay mentioned, even if others refuse to acknowledge them.
And “will you possibly consider that good and bad are just things we fucking made up to please our self-gratifying illusory egos?” was also a great point. We get over our egos, and we’ll solve all our problems.
I’m glad you said it, because I surely didn’t want to. Women and men are different. They are physically built different, and in many ways they are psychologically different. I think the idea of these two things being “equal” is an irrational argument. You can’t ever say an apple and an orange are completely equal, because they are two completely different things. Sure you may find an apple and an orange that weigh the same, but that only makes them equal in weight. Comparing a man to a woman is a similar comparison. It is also illogical to imply that one is inferior, overall, to the other.
@Kayne – you can really take offense to anything, especially if the phrase is meant to be negative. The only way to really keep from offending people is to never use any type of negative language. You could never say that anything is bad or wrong. That is the only way to not offend people. Every statement would need to be objective, expressing that one thing is different than the other; even the word “less” can be taken negatively, and it is used to express measurement and mathematics. So to not offend anyone, you would have to completely remove any type of language that could be considered negative, which would never happen because of the fact that any language can be meant negatively. At my work we say people “have a big neck”, and it just means they are trying to look strong, like a body builder. It’s meant negatively because of that person’s individual actions, not because we think body builders are inferior.
The fact that you believe that the entire world thinks of women as inferior to men is just your negative outlook on the entire world. I personally believe the general population is dumb, that doesn’t mean they are, it just means that’s what I see when I look out my window or drive down the road. Just because you believe something, doesn’t make it so.
I don’t think my age, sex, nationality, ‘race’ or place of origin should count towards anything in cases where other people are being brought down for any reason. If I hear racial slurs on the street I stop and ask that people not use that kind of language loudly in public.
My issue is less that people use this kind of language. It’s a hard unfortunate fact of reality; one I’m trying to change, but I digress.The issue is that it’s out in the open and it’s the first thing a person see’s on our home page. A proper newspaper or business would never run with such a tag line. And if they did, they shouldn’t. What does that say about us as users?
Comparing the idea of being a little girl to anything negatively reflects poorly on children and women. Why does being bad at something imply one is effeminate or young? Frankly this sort of talk sickens me.
* When I said ‘figures of speech that are highly offensive’ what I meant is the potential to be highly offensive. I choose not to take offense, not out of defeat but because I would rather not waste my energy. On a rare occasion I will draw someone’s attention to their careless word usage. But only if I think they will hear me out and at least entertain the idea of being more mindful when they speak.
as a parent who gets to interact with little kids all the time it didn’t even cross my mind to get offended. the real problem with the phrase is that little girls are the most outgoing, friendly people I meet! So, really, we should be more like little girls socially.
Just FYI while I am passionate about this kind of thing, I am not at all butt hurt, or even complaining really. I’m looking for academic and enlightened discussion on the topic. I used our title article as an amazingly circumstantial on hand item to use as example. I bear the author of the article no ill will so to speak, but I do believe the language used in the article is inappropriate.