I’ve noticed these topics being discussed more often these days, usually with varying degrees of belief and various descriptions of each.
Here are some basics to start with:
Chance=probability (simple enough)
Luck and karma are often confused, but luck is defined using very abstract terms such as a “force”, “fortune”, “a combination of circumstances.”
Karma actually translates as “action”, and the concept basically parallels “action results in equal reaction”
These terms are often tossed around, and even interchanged, without a true understanding of their meaning.
They may all be nonexistant, some/all exist without interaction, or some/all exist while influencing the other/s.
I’m curious about anyone’s thoughts, opinions, and/or experience with any or all of these.
i personally dont believe in luck? but i believe in karma. how can a person have a better chance (luck) than someone else, what do they have thats so special? nothing. @kathompson1121 i completely agree with you on karma, what goes around comes around.
“Fortes fortuna aduviat”
Fortune favours the strong.
“Luck” is just a result of doing things right, but mostly an excuse the failures use to avoid facing the truth that they’re doing it wrong. There really is no luck, it’s just momentum, leverage, TIMING.
How, then, would you explain the child on the verge of death at birth, the doctors doing everything right, but still cannot help the child. The child dies after having lived less than an hour. The child has had no time to do anything right or wrong, so are the parents to blame? the doctors? did the child just have “bad timing”?
Or say the child did survive, miraculously coming out of the dilemma with no explanation whatsoever. Was it something the infant, having just been born, did right in its first few minutes of life that created a better “momentum”?
Or are there forces in this world that we have yet to explain logically, because they appear to us to be simply chaotic?
““Luck” is just a result of doing things right, but mostly an excuse the failures use to avoid facing the truth that they’re doing it wrong.”
I agree, most people cannot/will not own up to the results of their actions if its not in their favor, but some things are left up to factors we are unaware of or are out of our control.
Take chance for instance:
If chance is governed by mathematics, what governs the result of an action subject to chance?
When flipping a coin, the chances of it landing on heads or tails is 50/50, but when it lands on say, heads, it becomes 100/0 heads/tails. Every time you flip the same coin, prior to it landing it always has a 50/50 chance, but what is it that governs the resulting head or tail outcome?
Are such things purely a result of chaos and out of the realm of our true comprehension, or is their a method to the madness that only god is fully aware of?
@aidenblair, If they don’t succeed, they’re obviously not doing everything right. Seriously, how could you fail if you’re doing it right? That’s a paradox.
Whether the child is doing something right/wrong, I have no idea, I have very little understanding of the subject of babies’ abilities. However, if the child is dying at birth then the parents obviously did something wrong during pregnancy.
If the child “miraculously” survives, it’s because things were done right.
I think the stuff you brought up reveals one of the main reasons the concept of “luck” exists in people’s minds… fear of death and pain… people make up all kinds of weird stuff just to give themselves some false hope that some imaginary shit will save them from pain and death. Pain and death is everywhere, waiting for us to do things wrong, whether you like it or not, and the only thing that can save a person is doing things right.
The coin flip thing is no mystery at all. The outcome of the flip is determined as soon as the coin has been flipped, it’s all about how it was flipped, what the wind is like, what it lands on, etc. If you master the art of flipping coins to the point where you can flip it the same way every time, you can get the same result over and over.
This principle holds true for everything. It’s all cause and effect, just because you don’t understand what triggers what, what patterns there are, etc. doesn’t mean it’s not there.
There’s all these complex, logical patterns, but most of em are out of reach of our understanding. That doesn’t mean they’re not there… and a whole bunch of them can be clearly seen by one who pays attention.
Do X, get Y, it’s all cause and effect.
There is no random chance or luck, just ignorance toward reality.
“If you can see 10% of what’s obvious, you’re a god damn ‘miracle worker.’ If you can see 20% of what’s obvious, you’re a ‘god among men.’ At least that’s how the ignorant will see you.” – Old saying
Pay attention, learn the rules of the game, and things will go your way a lot more.
i believe in the concept of karma as being what you give you will get in return. Its like a circle of dominos if you are mean or hurtful to someone they will be mean back. Even if its not yourself they retaliate to they will be hurtful to another who will in turn be hurtful to someone else who may someday be hurtful to you.
I fully believe in non-supernatural (NS) Karma as i think it explains most human reality, destructive acts generally bring about destructive reactions, creative acts generally bring about creative reactions. NS-Karma is a concept that allows you to see that you are mostly in control of your reality, and in terms of how you generally go about life, what you send out (positive/negative) comes back in some form.
Luck, and its counterpart, unlucky, describe chaotic agents beyond your control that benefit or harm you.
Chance is an educated guess based off of probability. It is educated Luck.
Well, I think, “luck is when chaos aligns in your favor, it describes uncontrollable circumstances.” therefore, in your scenario with the child, the opposite is true, “Unlucky is when chaos does not align in your favor, it describes uncontrollable circumstances”…
Children die daily due to complications, this is not the sign of fate but rather a either/or combination of genes from the parents and the current lack of medical understanding.
I believe in believing in luck. Studies have shown that those who think themselves lucky are more likely to perceive events in a positive way and thus are “lucky” so it either promotes or is part of a positive outlook on life. The opposite is true as well, with those who perceive themselves as unlucky being more likely to interpret thing negatively. That being said even if someone believes in luck they should never rely on it. Skill is what truly dictates the outcomes of events.
When it comes to Karma I’d say that it exists on a social level, but not a universal one. If you treat people badly then they are more likely to do the same to you. The universe itself however doesn’t go out of its way to help someone for giving to charity. It’s just as likely to reward the unjust as punish the righteous.
“If they don’t succeed, they’re obviously not doing everything right. Seriously, how could you fail if you’re doing it right? That’s a paradox.”
Thats not a paradox, thats just the universe. As far as saying luck does not exist, all wrong. Most of science and physics is based off of statistically improbable events occuring, some relying on an event occuring before it that was just as unlikely. Life in itself is so improbable for having occured that it just can not be chalked up as “a logical, complex pattern”.
“There is no random chance or luck, just ignorance toward reality.”
-yet you seem to be ignoring science and physics, and the history of the universe. Odd.
@yoinkie, “Thats not a paradox, thats just the universe.”
Errr NOPE! If your goal is to accomplish something, and you do not accomplish said thing, you obviously didn’t do it right. Doing it right would require succeeding. If you don’t do what you set out to do, you’re obviously not doing it right at all.
“Most of science and physics is based off of statistically improbable events occuring”
Based on statistics which are based on the current recorded data and understandings. Science doesn’t know everything yet, in fact we’ve discovered very little this far. Probability is not factual, probability is guesswork. A recorded collection of data is not all there is, not even close to it.
It doesn’t matter whether or not you believe in and/or understand gravity, it’s still there. Same goes for oxygen, chemical reactions, the space-time continuum, and a shitload of other stuff.
Don’t be so close-minded. Your inability to see the patterns doesn’t mean they’re not there.
Chaos and randomness do not really exist, everything is a sequence of triggers and reactions. Most of these are beyond the reach of our understanding, but they’re still there nonetheless. We can see the results… plus, the idea that things just happen randomly is against all logic and reason.
Drop a pebble in the water, ripples appear, small things that float on the water get moved around, this leads to various consequences, which trigger other consequences, which in turn bring about more consequences, etc.
Small things can make a huge difference in the long run, as the chain of reactions keeps going.
The existence of life is not at all improbable, it only seems that way from a certain perspective. Life exists, we have no reference of a non-existence of life, and so on, we have no solid evidence to build our idea of this probability upon. Thus we’re left with guesswork, projections.
Things that appear to “just happen,” are just results of previous events.
“Chaos and randomness do not really exist, everything is a sequence of triggers and reactions.”
I disagree, but only to an extent, everything is indeed a sequence of triggers and reactions, but the sheer multitude of this occurring constantly creates an unknowable fabric (at least, of its entirety). I agree that patterns and predictions can be made, but there is waaayyy to much to fully understand, and it is this that i refer to as chaos.
@tine, Unknowable? We don’t currently know, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be known. There is nothing on which to base a belief that there is a limit on how much can be known.
Yes, we can only perceive so much, that’s exactly what I’m talking about. What’s outside of that light cone is just the same as if it had been in clear sight. Even the stuff that’s just dimly lit in the edges of the light cone can be seen and understood, but very few people even pay the least bit of attention to that stuff.
As for what you want to call the gap between your understanding and the rest of all that is… call it what you will. What does it matter if someone agrees with your label? It doesn’t make any difference.
@tine, Well if you were to ask me I’d say you’re both right, and that you’re both arguing the same point. You say “the knowledge gap between what you see and all that there is… is termed chaos.” While Elion, says “Chaos and randomness do not really exist… Most (sequences of triggers and reactions) of these are beyond the reach of our understanding, but they’re still there nonetheless.” These are essentially the same statements arguing only semantics.
You say ‘Chaos exists because we use it to explain what we don’t understand.’ and he says ‘Chaos does not exist because we use it to explain what we don’t understand.’ and I say ‘Tomato.’
However, @manimal, “we have no reference of a non-existence of life.”… umm, when was the last time you looked at a rock?
The chemistry required for life to exist (careful now, this is that sciency stuff we’ve heard about, “burn the witch! burn the witch!”) is so complex (Most of the human body is made up of water, H2O, with cells consisting of 65-90% water by weight. Therefore, it isn’t surprising that most of a human body’s mass is oxygen. Carbon, the basic unit for organic molecules, comes in second. 99% of the mass of the human body is made up of just six elements: oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus.
Oxygen (65%) Carbon (18%) Hydrogen (10%) Nitrogen (3%) Calcium (1.5%) Phosphorus (1.0%) Potassium (0.35%) Sulfur (0.25%) Sodium (0.15%) Magnesium (0.05%) Copper, Zinc, Selenium, Molybdenum, Fluorine, Chlorine, Iodine, Manganese, Cobalt, Iron (0.70%) Lithium, Strontium, Aluminum, Silicon, Lead, Vanadium, Arsenic, Bromine (trace amounts)) and unlikely that nowhere in the (known/explored) universe have we WITNESSED ANY life whatsoever. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, it just means it is RARE and therefore highly UNLIKELY (aka improbable). Water is such a rare commodity in our solar system ALONE that, along with the acute absence of all these other elements and the requirement for the exact proper temp. AND the fact that our Earth/Moon system is 1/1,000,000 the size our solar system, and our solar system is 1/1,000,000 the size of the Milky Way, it seems the rarity of these elements over so vast a territory might be a bit of an issue when it comes to the “systematic”(if Elion prefers) or “chaotic”(if Tine prefers) creation of life…
But aside from that, I have no qualms with your post… 8?D
“Even the stuff that’s just dimly lit in the edges of the light cone can be seen and understood,”
Yes, it ‘can’ be if focused upon but, ‘we can only perceive so much’, therefore no matter where you focus, you still will not be seeing the whole picture. And, to provide scope, the amount of knowledge you are talking about to see all of it cannot be accumulated by one person in a thousand lifetimes. There is simply too much. Also, knowledge is evolving, changing, becoming more detailed, so even if you were able to say you have accumulated all the knowledge systems necessary to see reality fully, the knowledge systems you understand could have changed, been scrapped, contextualized deeper, etc. etc. as knowledge constantly changes.
Now, I am not implying a ‘fuck it’ approach, we can understand broad concepts fully that help us contextualize individual chaotic elements, but it is simply not true to say chaos is not there because it implies you understand all, this is impossible.
I explain how I label so that we can define what we are arguing about, not to try to force my label on to you. =)
@aidenblair, I do believe you act on things and the react back on you, even if it’s in an indirect way, so you like someone and someone else likes you, not necessarily the person you like likes you back, or you donate money and you get paid in an immaterial wealth.
Chance is just a matter of not understanding how the universe works, i don’t believe in chance or coincidence, it is all connected and logically but we don’t always see how the reasoning is behind things that happen.
Luck is something interesting, I don’t know maybe it is luck because you don’t see you actually deserve it, but that would mean that bad luck would also be something someone deserves hm. When I look at my life I think most of it is just planned and logical, if not, it is a higher logic reason that I can not (yet) understand. I did feel I was just living a moviescript some days, not really living in chances but more in certainty. I think luck and chance are just things we use because we don’t understand the reason of occuring and following events and circumstances.