larger self

3 years ago

"A finger is needed to point at the moon, but once the moon is located the finger can be forgotten"

11.24.2011 at 4:43 am

You must sign in or join to reply!

0
Profile photo of L.T L.T (@1love) 3 years ago ago

After reading a couple discussions, I see that a good amount of you guys believe that we are part of a bigger life form. After watching this ending as a kid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyzIau5dBao), I’ve been baffling with this thought ever since. So my question is; if our cosmos is a small pixel to a much bigger organism, than in your mind, what is this mighty organism and what is its purpose?

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of Ellie Ellie (@tangledupinplaid21) 3 years ago ago

Well when I think about the cells inside of us, they have no real “purpose” except for serving and propagating the larger orgamism(human body), so if this theory is correct(and I tend to think it is), I would think it’s similar to that. We could be tiny organisms in a gigantic sentient and living being, or we could be cells in something more like a tree, which isn’t living in the same way we are but which still coexists within the earth’s habitat and is an irreplaceable part of nature. If I had to guess though I’d say it’s something less familiar to what we are used to the idea of… It is probably something beyond our comprehension with how tiny we are in comparison to it. I doubt the little nuclei inside of each our atoms have any “idea” of the purpose they are serving, yet they carry out their functions. Similar to that a lot of living creatures(animals, bugs, trees) keep the food chain going unbeknownst to them.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of ELI var namnet ELI var namnet (@manimal) 3 years ago ago

The self is something we have to be able to operate our mind and body. You couldn’t live without one, it’s what separates you and makes you work as a person. I think there’s a kind of bigger self, but it’s only there to make us relate to other humans and in extension other animals and recognize living beings as living beings.

But I don’t think we’re part of anything bigger in this world. Anything bigger would be in a “world” beyond this one, where our spirits came from if such spirits exist. In this world, we are distinctly separate. All you’ve really got here is you, the world around you isn’t you, neither are other people. We’re all alone, this is an individual journey.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of Martijn Schirp Martijn Schirp (@martijn) 3 years ago ago

I believe that thinking you are seperate is the fundamental delusion. The ego, personality, the anthropocentric world view is more like the stomach, it digests information. While it thinks it does lord over our being, in actuality it doesn’t. It is there to serve, not to rule. It came very late in evolution, and the constant dualistic interpretation of the world by it and the insistence that that seperation between you and everything else is the fundamental human infection.

While the stomach tries to digest everything that enters, the brain analyses everything that enters. If it can’t digest it, it doesn’t get taken in. If it can digest it but doesn’t fit the already existent, very fixed in most people, world view, it alters it so it does fit.

When you look outside you are looking at yourself. And there can;t be an invididual journey since there is no individual.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler (@trek79) 3 years ago ago

I will go all “Men in black” on you. Perhaps we live on an electron orbiting an atom that is part of a cell in the body of a being not unlike us, who lives on an electron orbiting an atom that is part of a cell in the body of a being not unlike him….etc…..etc….

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of ELI var namnet ELI var namnet (@manimal) 3 years ago ago

@Martijn There is no individual you say? Do you not have a body of your own, and thoughts of your own? If there was no individual, you wouldn’t. We are clearly separated individuals, but this is just our forms.

If we weren’t distinct individuals, we wouldn’t be able to operate separately. Like rc cars operating on the same frequency, one remote control would steer us all. We would all move through our day in an identical pattern, at the exact same time. That’s not happening, now is it? We’re individuals, we are separate. That’s our forms in this world.

Beyond this world, I doubt a self exists at all. But we are in this world.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of Ellie Ellie (@tangledupinplaid21) 3 years ago ago

I am very interested in this exchange. I have been reading about Buddhism a lot lately and they mention the “illusion of dualism” quite often. Sometimes it makes sense to me but it’s also confusing since we are obviously individuals, a lot of whom are run by their egos(which do the separating) without even realizing it.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of Martijn Schirp Martijn Schirp (@martijn) 3 years ago ago

Your example Manimal is fundamentally flawed. Please explain to me the following questions:

If I breathe in, when does the oxygen become me?
When I go to the toilet, do I lose a part of myself? What if I lose a hand? Am I still the same individual?
If this individual is doing the thinking and acting the acts, why can’t I stop thinking and control the passions at my whim?

It’s funny that you mention the example you did. People DO move in very identical patterns. Most of them are pure chaos and at war with themselves, I am one of them. Ofcourse it is way too complicated for our thoughts, but surely, you must have experienced this in meditation? Not too long ago you claimed knowledge of the oneness of body and mind, how can you claim something else entirely right now?

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of  Anonymous (@) 3 years ago ago

@Martjin, your sweet dude hahahaha

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of jake arends jake arends (@jakexx) 3 years ago ago

@Martijn and Manimal, Can’t we be individuals who are part of something bigger? A car consits of different parts, these parts are not the car individually. It is collectively that they become a car (or that we call them a car). If the tires of this car could think and somehow become conscious, they wouldn’t be delusional to think that they are individuals. Because this is what makes one an individual. It is understanding the concept of being an individual.

I agree with you Martijn that Manimal’s example is flawed. But to answer your questions, you are not oxygen and oxygen never becomes you. You are not piss or poop, they are not what makes you you, so you don’t lose a part of yourself when going to the toilet. You don’t lose a part of yourself when you lose a body part either, you are not your body. You, the self is not a physical object, it is a concept.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of Martijn Schirp Martijn Schirp (@martijn) 3 years ago ago

I think I have to apologize, being swept up by the ongoing conversation of being, where different parts of the whole are in constant communication. I claimed truth where in fact I have none. Just mere opinion.

I do have reasons to believe what I do but it is also in my best interest to let go of these construction of thoughts so I can walk out of this labyrinth without myself.

Of all relative knowledge, emptiness is the highest, but in the end, that must show it’s emptiness aswell, as to give room and become the servant of the higher being that is our potential.

(I am high on my own supply, as in, reading too much philosophy (hermeneutic interpretation of Zen, Nietzsche and Meister Eckhart), writing, meditation and fasting. Please feel free to ask for clarification).

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of ELI var namnet ELI var namnet (@manimal) 3 years ago ago

@Martijn My examples may be fundamentally flawed (they are,) but so are yours. And we’re arguing from different perspectives. Let me clarify.

The oxygen doesn’t become you, although it is an element of your material body. You lose a hand, you lose a function of that same body. It doesn’t change your true being, because you are not your form/mindbody. In fact, nothing in this world changes your true being, ever. But I’m talking about this world, the body is, on all its levels (material, animal and ethereal,) separate from the rest of the world. It’s technically a part of it on the lower two, but it’s autonomous and free. The only thing that controls it is the soul or whatever you want to call it.

You can stop thinking and control those passions at your whim.

People do not move in identical patterns. And definitely not at the same time. There is no one entity controlling everybody.

Mind and body is one, none of what I’m saying here is contradicting this in any way. Mind and body is of this world, it’s our form, our vehicle in this world. The conscious soul isn’t, it’s unlimited. And that’s who we really are, everything else is form. This world is pretty much an illusion.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of Renee Renee (@themorning) 3 years ago ago

Martijn, I want to pick your brain.

“I do have reasons to believe what I do but it is also in my best interest to let go of these construction of thoughts so I can walk out of this labyrinth without myself.”

I understand what you mean here, and it seems similar to the things I’ve been struggling with.

My biggest struggle currently is that where I believe we are all different parts of a whole, we are not separate, in fact quite similar and that we can connect with what is “higher” of ourselves and connect to All through meditation and such…but isn’t believing in this and practicing it consistently giving an “I” to where there is none? Believing in anything at all is forming a Self in which to believe, yes? Which is why when grasping at Zen it disappears? As there is nothing to grasp and no one to do the grasping? Or in a way from this practice am I losing a little more of my Self to my Higher Self, to where all of these beliefs and this meditation will melt into my very being?

Sorry if this deviates from the original conversation. My two cents is that the individual does not exist, we are all small parts of something bigger, and the something bigger is All.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of Renee Renee (@themorning) 3 years ago ago

Or I suppose describing the individual is an “illusion” works better than that it doesn’t exist. We can feel that we as individuals exist because we are only experiencing individual realities. Individual realities exist. Individual journeys exist, but at our core, we all remain the same.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of Ka Ka (@kaciula) 3 years ago ago

To me, it’s pretty clear that there is no self.

At one level, there is space, time, matter and if we start from these assumptions, it’s clear the universe is on autopilot. We are the universe manifesting itself. There is no separate individual who came out of somewhere else to experience this universe. It’s cause and effect all the way. But in this case, you have no answer to the question of where does the universe exists?

At a higher level, remove these silly assumptions that there is space, time and matter and what you get is consciousness. There is seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking, tasting etc. that all take part inside consciousness and there are at the same time consciousness. Timeless, spaceless consciousness. It’s not a person, it’s not a self, it’s not a soul. All is consciousness, whatever that means.

See how easy it is? :) Now let’s go back to the discussion. It’s the universe/consciousness that tries to figure out what it really is.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of Alex Alex (@hollowinfinity) 3 years ago ago

Zeno’s Paradoxes. Motion is an illusion. If motion is an illusion, time is as well, therefore gravity, therefore individual existence. All things are one, and we are an illusion creating more illusions.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of Ellie Ellie (@tangledupinplaid21) 3 years ago ago

I would argue that existence exists… simple Being is not an illusion. The illusions start when we conjure up ideas of the “way things are”. Nothing that can be discussed or intellectualized can ever be anything but interpretations of reality. Words are just symbols. If human beings weren’t around to call trees “trees”, a “tree” would not exist at all. I am not trying to discount words as useful, because they allow us to communicate, obviously… but I think they often cause unnecessary borders or bastardize pure existence.
As for motion not existing, I can definitely see how that would be true. If time doesn’t exist then it is never the past or future, only now… and each split nanosecond that passes, there is no motion. Motion only comes with a sequence of seconds.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of Martijn Schirp Martijn Schirp (@martijn) 3 years ago ago

Manimal: Then what is this so called true being, is this something seperate from the five skandhas, the different drives we have?

Also, even though this world is relatively seen an illusion, ultimately it is just as unlimited as your so called soul. Samsara IS nirvana. There is no seperation.

@Renee: but isn’t believing in this and practicing it consistently giving an “I” to where there is none?

Yes, but there is no other way. There is no truth, and no insight to be gained, it’s not teleological, no goal to be gained. There is only continual self overcoming, so you can em-body truth. That your whole be-ing expresses truth as it is.

Believing in anything at all is forming a Self in which to believe, yes?

Yes. The alternative is nihilism. But there is both passive and active nihilism. Passive is rejecting life with it, active is for the strong, nihilism of nihilism (emptiness is empty if you will). Completely affirming life while knowing it has no meaning. Which can only happen if the whole body is in harmony again, that mind knows it place and the Great Self, that which thinks the ego, uses all drives spontaneously.

Which is why when grasping at Zen it disappears?

Yes, grasping is the will to truth. You think you gained something, something true. Which immediately puts a boundary on total spontaneity.

As there is nothing to grasp and no one to do the grasping?
So you need to first master all drives, have an extremely strong will. This is a second nature you need to learn. At one point you will do this without exertion, it becomes first nature. There won;t be any grasping anymore.

Or in a way from this practice am I losing a little more of my Self to my Higher Self, to where all of these beliefs and this meditation will melt into my very being?
Well, you become stronger and stronger untill you can handle the truth. If you can’t handle it, the digestion of it won’t work. So yes. :)

Or I suppose describing the individual is an “illusion” works better than that it doesn’t exist. We can feel that we as individuals exist because we are only experiencing individual realities. Individual realities exist. Individual journeys exist, but at our core, we all remain the same.

Yes and no, the illusion that you exist is a evolutionary advantage. If you were able to think in terms of causality, time and self/other you had a better chance of survival, this creating more ofspring. But to overcome this, to reach you full potential, you need to question all basic assumptions. That of self, time, space, every other limit you can conceive of. The problem is, if you are not strong enough or if you think the mind is the master of your being you will go crazy or you will stay in the labyrinth.

Evolution filtered out everything that doesn’t work for survival, so we have a basic drive for error. It’s not this, it’s not that. But this is not affirmation, we can never say this is true because we experience it. So our drive for error must change into a drive for truth. This leads to extreme skepticism, or nihilism (in thought). And to overcome this you need active nihilism, true acceptance of momentary being, unitary body/mind where thoughts are just relative tools for aspiring to the Superman, or being enlightened. Just like any other sensation. You can’t say pain is more true than pleasure or vice versa. Same with thoughts.

If you really want to thread this path, you need ruthless truth to yourself, investigating every small weakness and resistance you have. Keep meditating, working out and living healthy (the ‘higher’ you are the harder you’ll fall). And never stop writing. Also, definitely keep on reading Zen, and maybe also the three metamorphoses from Nietzsche (Camel to Lion to Child). etc.

Sorry, I wrote it quick without editing, I don;t have much time now, have to write a few papers and edit my new piece for HE, but feel free again to ask for elaboration.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of Martijn Schirp Martijn Schirp (@martijn) 3 years ago ago

How would it look like if there was no time? Exactly, just the same as it would look right now. How would it look like if there was no self? Exactly, same as now.

Words are symbols. But once you start believing that you created another wall in the labyrinth again. So one way to think about it is through Nagarjuna’s great philosophical treatise for Mahayana Buddhism, the middle way. The tetralemma says:

Is everything self existent? No
Is everything not self existent? No
Is it both self existent and not self existent? No
Is it neither self existent nor not self existent? No

A, not A, both A and not A, and neither A nor not A.

:)

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of ELI var namnet ELI var namnet (@manimal) 3 years ago ago

@Martijn You believe in Skandas and Samsara, I don’t. It’s just belief, does it really matter? No. Looking beyond such beliefs and anti-beliefs, there’s a whole world of new information.

We don’t know what we don’t know, religious beliefs are only another limit.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of ELI var namnet ELI var namnet (@manimal) 3 years ago ago

@Martijn Are you not doing the same thing?

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of Martijn Schirp Martijn Schirp (@martijn) 3 years ago ago

No, I don’t think so. I tried to imply that all utterances, like it is A, not A, both A and not A, neither A nor not A are all still fixed believes that are relative truth, not ultimate truth (non-dual). Everything we say here must fall in these categories, but in the end, they are only the fingers pointing to the moon, non the moon itself. And even more, we can never grasp the moon, we can only look at it (being the perspective, being truth, not having some kind of revelation).

If you say I believe in samsara you are pulling 1 thing I said out of context and construct an argument around that, not trying to understand the whole context.

So, no, we’re not doing the same thing. You’re trying to state truth and discreting every other argument that doesn’t fit in your context while I try to understand all arguments, and make a whole that everyone can agree on. If you find any fault, I would love to learn more. Because if I learned anything it is that I constantly blind myself (because thats nice and comfy).

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of  Anonymous (@) 3 years ago ago

I like what bill hicks said, one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. Our body/vessel/brain sets the parameters for our earthly experience but as perceiving units we are inertly similar. If there’s a psych/soul then possibly this can be imprinted by experience and this is where individualism would occur, but the rest is ego. Look around, we’re not so different you and I.

[Hidden]
+
0
Profile photo of ELI var namnet ELI var namnet (@manimal) 3 years ago ago

@Martijn Well, you mentioned that Samsara is Nirvana, and so on. Did I pull that out of context? Because that’s how you used it. And when you say I’m strawmanning, aren’t you, per automatic, strawmanning by doing so?

And when you say that I’m trying to state the truth, you’re doing it again.

Just because I stand my ground it doesn’t mean that I’m discreting what people are saying (then why would I be discussing?) or claiming my understanding to be fact. What’s the point in discussing if we aren’t going to “correct” eachother like we’re doing now? Are we discussing to reach something, or just to entertain our ideas? The latter sounds very pointless to me, and that’s all the discussion will be if we’re gonna adapt like you tell me to do.

I don’t sugarcoat my stuff or make pointless apologies in advance, that doesn’t mean I’m a bag of dicks who thinks he’s right.

[Hidden]
+
Reply to this topic
0
Profile photo of L.T

More Posts Like This

Today 11.28.2014
0

Watch miss earth now live 2014

Watch miss earth now live 2014

0

How do u review INTERSTELLAR by Nolan?

Did it make you think!?Did it make u believe the unbelievable?Did it...