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@ devon, Under my understanding yes, definitely true. Look at the two prime forms of meditation as a perfect example, Shamatha and Vispassana. They are the strengthening of the Male and of the Female energies respectively. Shamatha is focus on exactly something and Vispassana is focus on exactly nothing. The present moment is where one will find nothingness.
Train the powers of focusing on subtleties through Shamatha and truths will begin to manifest themselves to the observer during Vispassana. Train in letting go of perception through Vispassana and your Shamatha meditation will be more immersing and therefore more beneficial. These two forms are a feedback loop. Just like Male and Female are. Figured this out last night.
After reading a couple discussions, I see that a good amount of you guys believe that we are part of a bigger life form. After watching this ending as a kid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyzIau5dBao), I’ve been baffling with this thought ever since. So my question is; if our cosmos is a small pixel to a much bigger organism, than in your mind, what is this mighty organism and what is its purpose?
Alex, “It is like a finger pointing away to the moon, do not concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory” lol. (Bruce Lee, Zen philosophy)
What really matters? That is what you ask yourself. Is it loving? Being happy? I think these are options but I do not really think they matter. Are we part of a greater scheme of things or are we just individual beings that have no real point other than making life have it’s own meaning to ourselves in our own way, living life to the fullest?
This again I do not think matters. What does matter, regardless of which is truth from what I previously mentioned, is how we treat each other. It matters that we show each other compassion and try not to harm each other. That alone is the only “something greater” you need be concerned with.
However it is fun, and therefore living life, to explore these questions as long as we remember (regardless of answers, beliefs, theories and lack of answers we come across) what is really vital.
@Martijn My examples may be fundamentally flawed (they are,) but so are yours. And we’re arguing from different perspectives. Let me clarify.
The oxygen doesn’t become you, although it is an element of your material body. You lose a hand, you lose a function of that same body. It doesn’t change your true being, because you are not your form/mindbody. In fact, nothing in this world changes your true being, ever. But I’m talking about this world, the body is, on all its levels (material, animal and ethereal,) separate from the rest of the world. It’s technically a part of it on the lower two, but it’s autonomous and free. The only thing that controls it is the soul or whatever you want to call it.
You can stop thinking and control those passions at your whim.
People do not move in identical patterns. And definitely not at the same time. There is no one entity controlling everybody.
Mind and body is one, none of what I’m saying here is contradicting this in any way. Mind and body is of this world, it’s our form, our vehicle in this world. The conscious soul isn’t, it’s unlimited. And that’s who we really are, everything else is form. This world is pretty much an illusion.
@Manimal The triangle, it’s a really sturdy tool for navigating spiritual confusion.
Now that you point out that you can be extremely masculine or feminine and it indeed yields a balanced individual, which is totally true, I am doubting my previous musing about a paradigm shift in evolution. I guess what the real problem is is that superficial manhood is now the norm and as a result, femininity has been disassociated from by the masculine-drawn population in general. Seen as weak. In the West anyway.
No, I don’t think so. I tried to imply that all utterances, like it is A, not A, both A and not A, neither A nor not A are all still fixed believes that are relative truth, not ultimate truth (non-dual). Everything we say here must fall in these categories, but in the end, they are only the fingers pointing to the moon, non the moon itself. And even more, we can never grasp the moon, we can only look at it (being the perspective, being truth, not having some kind of revelation).
If you say I believe in samsara you are pulling 1 thing I said out of context and construct an argument around that, not trying to understand the whole context.
So, no, we’re not doing the same thing. You’re trying to state truth and discreting every other argument that doesn’t fit in your context while I try to understand all arguments, and make a whole that everyone can agree on. If you find any fault, I would love to learn more. Because if I learned anything it is that I constantly blind myself (because thats nice and comfy).
Train the powers of focusing on subtleties through Shamatha and thoughts will begin to manifest themselves to the observer during Vispassana. Train in letting go of perception through Vispassana and your Shamatha meditation will be more immersing and therefore more beneficial. These two forms are a feedback loop. Just like Male and Female.
Well when I think about the cells inside of us, they have no real “purpose” except for serving and propagating the larger orgamism(human body), so if this theory is correct(and I tend to think it is), I would think it’s similar to that. We could be tiny organisms in a gigantic sentient and living being, or we could be cells in something more like a tree, which isn’t living in the same way we are but which still coexists within the earth’s habitat and is an irreplaceable part of nature. If I had to guess though I’d say it’s something less familiar to what we are used to the idea of… It is probably something beyond our comprehension with how tiny we are in comparison to it. I doubt the little nuclei inside of each our atoms have any “idea” of the purpose they are serving, yet they carry out their functions. Similar to that a lot of living creatures(animals, bugs, trees) keep the food chain going unbeknownst to them.
This actually fits with a quantum theory that electrons traveling in a vibration are actually parts of the electron going one way and part going the other way. With this logic, all of existence is basically one massive vibrating electron(which may or may not be sentient), and as a series of progressively smaller systems, (creation, omniverse, universe, galaxy, solar system, planet, species, organs, tissues, cells, molecules, atoms, quanta[quarks], and finally pure energy, perhaps we are part of a looped system, where the very origin of creation, the higher “organism” is the same as the infinite energy that is within the quanta?
But what does it matter, my stoned mind tells me that if we could ever fully comprehend what basically amounts to a pure concept of God, then our little brains would just explode, which would be awesome.
Martijn, I want to pick your brain.
“I do have reasons to believe what I do but it is also in my best interest to let go of these construction of thoughts so I can walk out of this labyrinth without myself.”
I understand what you mean here, and it seems similar to the things I’ve been struggling with.
My biggest struggle currently is that where I believe we are all different parts of a whole, we are not separate, in fact quite similar and that we can connect with what is “higher” of ourselves and connect to All through meditation and such…but isn’t believing in this and practicing it consistently giving an “I” to where there is none? Believing in anything at all is forming a Self in which to believe, yes? Which is why when grasping at Zen it disappears? As there is nothing to grasp and no one to do the grasping? Or in a way from this practice am I losing a little more of my Self to my Higher Self, to where all of these beliefs and this meditation will melt into my very being?
Sorry if this deviates from the original conversation. My two cents is that the individual does not exist, we are all small parts of something bigger, and the something bigger is All.
I like what you say in your last paragraph. We really need more manly men who openly embody feminine traits (and pull it off) in our society. Role models. Because I don’t see aggressive females pulling it off any time soon. They are met with too much resistance even from the female population.
I like what bill hicks said, one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. Our body/vessel/brain sets the parameters for our earthly experience but as perceiving units we are inertly similar. If there’s a psych/soul then possibly this can be imprinted by experience and this is where individualism would occur, but the rest is ego. Look around, we’re not so different you and I.
Females have more chemical reactions in the brain, whereas men have more electrical reactions in the brain. The end result is basically, guys are more rational and girls more intuitive. Obviously this is just in general and changes from individual to individual.
Chemical reactions= feeling
Electrical = reasoning
The self is something we have to be able to operate our mind and body. You couldn’t live without one, it’s what separates you and makes you work as a person. I think there’s a kind of bigger self, but it’s only there to make us relate to other humans and in extension other animals and recognize living beings as living beings.
But I don’t think we’re part of anything bigger in this world. Anything bigger would be in a “world” beyond this one, where our spirits came from if such spirits exist. In this world, we are distinctly separate. All you’ve really got here is you, the world around you isn’t you, neither are other people. We’re all alone, this is an individual journey.
@Manimal If you don’t understand what nirvana = samsara means then don’t try to correct me. Also, please investigate your motivations for entering every discussion on HE, implying fact with your style of reasoning, since I can’t help myself but to think you have a huge discrepancy between what you say and what you do.
@Renee I would highly recommend a retreat. I did a month long one myself and it changed my life. Maybe do a secular one just in case. :)
Or I suppose describing the individual is an “illusion” works better than that it doesn’t exist. We can feel that we as individuals exist because we are only experiencing individual realities. Individual realities exist. Individual journeys exist, but at our core, we all remain the same.
@Martijn Well, you mentioned that Samsara is Nirvana, and so on. Did I pull that out of context? Because that’s how you used it. And when you say I’m strawmanning, aren’t you, per automatic, strawmanning by doing so?
And when you say that I’m trying to state the truth, you’re doing it again.
Just because I stand my ground it doesn’t mean that I’m discreting what people are saying (then why would I be discussing?) or claiming my understanding to be fact. What’s the point in discussing if we aren’t going to “correct” eachother like we’re doing now? Are we discussing to reach something, or just to entertain our ideas? The latter sounds very pointless to me, and that’s all the discussion will be if we’re gonna adapt like you tell me to do.
I don’t sugarcoat my stuff or make pointless apologies in advance, that doesn’t mean I’m a bag of dicks who thinks he’s right.
I believe that thinking you are seperate is the fundamental delusion. The ego, personality, the anthropocentric world view is more like the stomach, it digests information. While it thinks it does lord over our being, in actuality it doesn’t. It is there to serve, not to rule. It came very late in evolution, and the constant dualistic interpretation of the world by it and the insistence that that seperation between you and everything else is the fundamental human infection.
While the stomach tries to digest everything that enters, the brain analyses everything that enters. If it can’t digest it, it doesn’t get taken in. If it can digest it but doesn’t fit the already existent, very fixed in most people, world view, it alters it so it does fit.
When you look outside you are looking at yourself. And there can;t be an invididual journey since there is no individual.
Jesus had it right in describing the Holy Trinity. The Father represents the global (higher) self, the Son represents the incarnation of the Father – Man; or Self, and the Holy Spirit represents consciousness – the witness of the duality of external and internal.
The All, The Self, and the Duality between them. But three in the same. To say any of the three is less prominent or important than the other two is folly. It is a perfect triangle and can only function as a triangle. We reason linearly, not triangularly, so we cannot grasp it – we only live it.
In more scientific terms; the Father is simple energy, probability and the laws of physics – these make up the form of the physical self, including the entirety of the mind. And they ultimately govern our distinct environments and societies. Creation. Excitation. Male Energy.
The Holy Spirit represents existence and consciousness. What IS. What happens. The harmony among all things. Pure experience of reality. . or, Nothingness. Laxity. Female Energy.
The Son represents the individual, the being that is detected by the ego. It is not actually the self because the self cannot have an absolute definition other than an imaginary algorithm of infinite complexity, it only hints at what the self is by relating to its environment, pretty primitive. It nevertheless plays the role of controller, because neither of the creation energies alone would be suitable to do it alone. If it identifies with itself, though, it will rob itself of consciousness and thus become vulnerable to its environment and therefore become off balance and not something of its true nature. SELF ABSORBED.
These are also defined by psychologist Carl Jung in regard to the nature of our personal psyche, which models itself after the universe. Three parts; the Animus, Anima, and Shadow. Father, Holy Spirit, and Son, respectively. His work is worth looking up if you haven’t familiarized yourself with it.
Alignment between Male and Female leads to enlightenment. I see error in the majority of eastern spirituality practice, as they prefer the Female over the Male and waste their humanity in solitude and laxity. And the error in the nihilistic self-righteous view is that it prefers the Male over the Female and waste their lives in excitation, over-involvement with stimulus of their daily lives. TRUE alignment will lead to true expression of self. Life as bliss and beauty. A few known geniuses of ancient times and of the renaissance achieved this state of being and perhaps many of our prehistorical ancient ancestors. And of course Jesus and the Buddha. This explains their nonsexual or bisexual preferences.
Is it healthy? Maybe not. I think certain people need to be born into these roles though in order to guide the race. But in general maybe Dudes should stick to the Male role (as defined by our society) and Chicks should play the Female role. Or maybe evolution means to shift the paradigm into such that we would be creatures who express both sexualities and are either naturally immortal/non-sexual or still mortal but bisexual and therefore, in both circumstances, be more grounded with reality. Intelligence is the product of our species, so this makes a lot of sense; but the human conscience (conscious identification with the Son, Shadow) is interfering.
To me, it’s pretty clear that there is no self.
At one level, there is space, time, matter and if we start from these assumptions, it’s clear the universe is on autopilot. We are the universe manifesting itself. There is no separate individual who came out of somewhere else to experience this universe. It’s cause and effect all the way. But in this case, you have no answer to the question of where does the universe exists?
At a higher level, remove these silly assumptions that there is space, time and matter and what you get is consciousness. There is seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking, tasting etc. that all take part inside consciousness and there are at the same time consciousness. Timeless, spaceless consciousness. It’s not a person, it’s not a self, it’s not a soul. All is consciousness, whatever that means.
See how easy it is? :) Now let’s go back to the discussion. It’s the universe/consciousness that tries to figure out what it really is.
Sure we are all our own individual being, maybe only in existence to experience itself. Which is great, and our body vessel is a constant paradox to our being self, which creates the contrast between the two and encourages the realization. But now that more and more people are becoming conscious of their own self being, it seems as though people are “waking up”, more so now then ever. So great we are all becoming conscious of our self beings, letting it guide us a little more then before, and becoming refreshed and feeling fulfilled in doing so.
The more i experienced and researched this, i keep hearing of a “group consciousness”, and that there is a shift that has just recently started in mankind. Talking about a larger self in this thread, i wonder if humans as a whole are experiencing and living as one big organism. And as more and more people shift into a new consciousness, it seems as though this “one big organism” is ready to evolve into something new or improved.