law and punishment, idea spin

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Avatar of Tine
Tine (@tine)    1 year, 10 months ago

hi there, i would like to discuss something difficult, and also a possible solution, but first, please know this is only an opinion, an opinion based on solid logic, but an opinion nonetheless, therefore if you feel the need to get angry, just understand, i might simply ignore your reply, ( opinion ), all this is,

i would like to start off with a statement that has become incredible apparent ever since i became a father and have been forced to deal with the misbehaviors of youth, “the punishment should fit the crime”,

now, here comes one of those opinion thingies, ( – this is not the main point, but a parallel to it,- ) — i agree with the death penalty–, if you take another’s life, the only right punishment is the same, ( – another opinion – ), –i agree with how they do it–, both in terms of humane execution (something the perpetrator never, ever gives) and the legal process up to it,

see, there are checks and balances, simply because you kill does not mean you get the needle, there are levels of severity, that makes sure that there is a high, high probability that if you executed, you deserve it, now, is it perfect? Pfffttt wtf is? get over it, it’s the best we have to work with,

(please do not argue the death penalty in the thread, this is not the point, this is to show a legal parallel for the following:)

lets talk about rapist and child molesters,

- Total number of registered sex offenders nationwide in the U.S….. ( 747,408 )
- Total number of sex offenders under supervision of a corrections agencies….. ( 265,000)
- Percent of sex offenders that will commit another sex crime after being released from jail….. (5.3 %)
- Percent of sex offenders that will commit a crime (non-sexual) after release from jail….. (87 %)
- Percent of sexually molested boys who are molested by someone they knew….. (60 %)
- Percent of sexually molested girls who are molested by someone they knew….. (80 %)
- Percent of second offenses that occur while living in a supervised community….. (60 %)
- Average re-conviction rate for a child molester….. (20 %)
- Average re-conviction rate for rapists….. (19%)
- Percent of children who are sexually abused that will become sexually abusive later in life….. (30%)
- Average annual cost to incarcerate a sex offender….. ($22,000)
- Percent of sexual assaults that occur between 6:00pm and 12:00am….. (43%)
- Average number of years a sex offender serves of an 8 year sentence….. (3.5 years)
- Average number of children molested by 1 predator before they’re caught….. (117 children)
( – Source: http://www.statisticbrain.com/sex-offender-statistics/ -)

747, 408 ( registered ) offenders, these are the ones we know about. Of these, there is a 20% average re-conviction rate for child molesters, 19% for rapist, and there is a 87%, when offenders are released from jail, they will commit another crime (non-sexual related)

lets talk about the victims here for a second before i make my point, this taking advantage of someone weaker is so wide sweeping that it touches most people’s lives in some way, some of you know someone, some of you know ( i wish written word could properly describe my empathy for you ),

why is the victim worth considering? when someone is sexually abused they get a walking death sentence, it is something they can come out of with proper support, but most often is the case, support is nowhere to be found,

this reality becomes a stigma, a curse ( don’t get caught up on this term, i imply nothing supernatural, just an elongated stigma that can effect generations after ), this individual wanders reality, hurt, in the worst emotional way possible, the cause / effect of what was done to them can often be seen in their behavior towards their own ( children ) and all other important relationships, who then model and repeat because they do not know any better, it becomes like an emotional cancer,

the molester gets 5 years, the victim gets a life sentence, the molester 20% of the time re-offends, or, 87% of the time, continues in criminal action, the victim gets a life sentence,
perhaps the punishment does not fit the crime? perhaps?

now, to draw the parallel, if we can take a humans life due to a cause / effect they started, does that not leave everything in between open, ( if ) it matches the crime?

here is what I suggest, similar to the various checks and balances of the death penalty, based on severity and fact, when a child molester is convicted, he can receive 5 years – castration,

yes, ( castration ). he has clearly shown, through action, that he cannot control himself, that he will take advantage of someone weaker,

THE PUNISHMENT WILL FIT THE CRIME,

i am very serious here, consider what this would do to people considering the action. think about the comfort in the victim knowing, KNOWING, they can never hurt them again, ever,

what do you think?

Remember the last statistics:

Average number of children molested by 1 predator before they’re caught….. (117 children)

0 votes, posted 12.04.2012 at 10:59 am
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Avatar of JM
JM (@gilgethan)1 year, 9 months ago ago

hmm…

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Anonymous (@)1 year, 9 months ago ago

1) In the United States, it’s cheaper for people to serve a life sentence than it is to carry out the death penalty.

2) You’re saying that “the punishment should fit the crime.” That seems to be open to many different interpretations.

3) Castration doesn’t necessarily solve the problem.

4) Let’s chop off some hands while we’re at it. /sarcasm (Yes, I’m aware of chemical castration.)

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Anonymous (@)1 year, 9 months ago ago

5) Not all offenders are male.

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Avatar of Jon Leo
Jon Leo (@d503)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@tine, I am definitely not opposed to the idea of castration as a punishment for sex offenders but it is not the most appropriate punishment. The most appropriate punishment for a sex offender or rapist is that they simply be raped. Machines exist that can perform this task for you, gimps also exist.

The other school of thought I subscribe to would say kill them with kindness. Why are rapists rapists? Are they not getting enough sex? Cultures which freely share, do not experience theft. Native Americans had no need to steal anything within their own community because they were given anything they wanted. I would say, introduce these perverse people to people who would enjoy freely sharing their bodies with them. The only reason they exist is because society is so weird and restrictive about sex.

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Anonymous (@)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@d503, holy duck…

Are you for real?

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Avatar of Jon Leo
Jon Leo (@d503)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@dalniente, are you? no! you’re just words on my screen. I’m tempted to imagine that some person wrote them.

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apricelessgoat (@aworthlessgoat)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@dalniente 5) not all offenders are male.

thats a really good point, how would you castrate the females?

@tine People actually used to cut the hands off of thieves and i think they castrated people based on other reasons since it was the norm to have sex with young children. We changed from this and I’m honestly not sure if it was a good thing or a bad thing.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind- Ghandi.

In cases like this however, where one person damages another person I don’t think that first person should be given an opportunity to do it again.I don’t think it should apply to, say, someone who is 19 that is with a 15 year old. that 19 year old is probably still very immature and is with someone that is at their age level in terms of mental/emotional maturity. But if it were 30 and 12 then yes, definitely that 30 year old should be punished harshly, with castration or eyes being gouged out or even death. But I’m not really sure where the line should be legitimately be drawn.

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yoinkie (@yoinkie)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@dalniente, Its crazy to think that a single death penalty costs the state roughly 5 million to carry out. The entire system is fucked, eating up our state and federal funds(dont get me started on the war against drugs).

@d503, LMAO. Ive heard of an eye for an eye, but a butt rape for a butt rape is new to me. I dont even know if you are being serious.

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Avatar of
Anonymous (@)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@d503, you said the most suitable punishment would be to rape convicted rapists. Hey, let’s not solve the underlying problem! Let’s go completely insane, get revenge, and have the government sanction something they’re punishing someone for!

~”Why are rapists rapists? Are they not getting enough sex?”~

Rape isn’t just about wanting to get laid, dear.

~”Cultures which freely share, do not experience theft.”~

Maybe less so, but I doubt it would be completely eradicated. Source, please.

~”Native Americans had no need to steal anything within their own community because they were given anything they wanted.”~

Same thing as my comment on the quote above. Source, please.

That is over-romanticizing Native Americans. They also weren’t a homogenous group of people.

~”I would say, introduce these perverse people to people who would enjoy freely sharing their bodies with them.”~

Right, because that would solve the underlying problem? /sarcasm

~”The only reason they exist is because society is so weird and restrictive about sex.”~

Source, please. Although it may contribute to it, it’s pretty bold to make a claim like that.

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Avatar of Jon Leo
Jon Leo (@d503)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@dalniente, If I go to your home and ask you where your bathroom is, and you tell me its around the corner at the end of the hall… I’m not going to ask you for a source. I assume you have the ability to navigate your house. If I did ask you for a source, you’d say that you can’t be bothered to go find the architectural blueprints of your house and that I should just go see for myself that the bathroom is there. Please infer from my analogy my response to every request you have made for a source. Remember while doing so that this is a discussion of opinions, which need no sources.

If a guy rapes a chick, then gets a huge cock up his ass against his will, he’ll know how it feels and won’t do it again. We have to get to the core of the issue to see why people are committing these acts instead of just weeding people out of society and ruining their lives.

Rape is not just about wanting to get laid, in some cases its about wanting to be in control of other people. Sex is considered taboo in a lot of society. Parents wait to explain sex until their children are ‘mature’ enough to hear about something that I think they should have been familiar with from the get-go. If you walk out of your home naked, people will freak out. You’ll have people staring and some people may even call the cops. There is s stigma. This stigma represses a part of people. That repression is a big part of what manifests itself in our behaviour as sexual obsession, molestation, abuse and rape.

Lets forget about native Americans then, lets look at Japan. Go to Japan and leave a purse or a bag full of money in the street and walk away. Come back in an hour and it will still be there. There is a cultural element to crime whether native Americans are homogeneous or not.

Are you aware that in many cultures, its normal for children to be married at age 12 and be having sex? But in America and other backwards countries, people are expected to be 18 before having any sex. Are you going to go to those places and tell those 13 year old boys touching their 12 year old wives vaginas that they are criminals?

Sex should be as normal to us as eating, you never see someone forcefully making someone else eat things, or over-eat. Sex becomes this power in our lives because we let it.

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Avatar of Egarim
Egarim (@egarim)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@tine,

You bring up a lot of information to prove a very simple point haha. I appreciate it but here’s my take:

The justice system is broken. The punishment never really fits the crime. The thing is we as a society are mixed in our beliefs: if we answer violence with violence where does that take us? As much as I would love to know that all rapists and child molesters get castrated… that places us on the same boat as them. Think about it.

Lethal injections, electric chairs, public stonings…. these things aren’t for justice. They are for the comfort and satisfaction of the public. They are made with an audience in mind: people sit and watch these executions happen. It is to satiate the angers of the public.

“Battle not with monsters, lest ye become one” -Nietzsche

Lastly, go watch the movie Se7en. Trust me on this, this is really the only movie I ever truly recommend. It’s about those that commit horrible wrongs and so a vigilante psychopath sets out to let the world know what true punishment for their sins are. The ending will explain to you what I mean about becoming a monster.

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Avatar of
Anonymous (@)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@d503, you don’t seem to understand what an opinion is.

An opinion is not falsifiable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiable

Some of the quotes in my previous post can be proven wrong. Ergo, they’re not opinions. Your questionable grasp of the English language confuses me, considering the name of your show and topics covered on it.

http://www.highexistence.com/topic/the-red-pill/

Again, cultural views on sex may have something to do with the prevalence of sex offenders, but it’s not the only cause.

Punishing someone with rape won’t necessarily solve the problem. It’s nonsensical. What we need is more research on the matter.

I agree, Japan is safer than many countries. However, theft has not been completely eradicated there. My point about Native Americans not being homogenous is that they don’t all have the SAME culture.

The age of consent is up for debate, and things get gray. In general, do you think twelve year olds are mentally mature enough to make those decisions for themselves? What are the long-term effects of things like that on a country? I’ll leave that part of the discussion here.

Yes, America should relax its attitudes on sex, but pointing to that does not add much weight to your point. You leave out the middle ground. Social views vary across the country (abstinence-only education is also ineffective), and the average age of consent is around 16.

You specified a thirteen year old married to a twelve year old. You don’t seem to be very familiar with law. In general, minors are not prosecuted for sleeping with minors, things get hairier when one person is 18+.

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Avatar of Jon Leo
Jon Leo (@d503)1 year, 9 months ago ago

In response to your childish argument ad hominem, I do know what an opinion is. OP specifically stated that this is a discussion of opinions. I don’t care whether or not you think what you say is an opinion and I’ve not expressed an opinion myself as to whether or not I think you’ve provided one.

“Punishing someone with rape won’t necessarily solve the problem. It’s nonsensical. ”
^
That is an opinion.

I’d love to know how “the Red Pill” as a show name exhibits poor English. Please share this opinion of yours with me. I’m always open to constructive criticism and would be glad to take this opportunity to improve my English.

Finally, I’d like to ask you to re-read the original post and put yourself into the mindset of ‘hypothetical thought experiment’, then re-read all subsequent posts before deciding to post again. I believe that what you are lacking here is context.

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Avatar of Jon Leo
Jon Leo (@d503)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@dalniente, btw, I noticed you have references. Good job! ^ _ ^

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Avatar of
Anonymous (@)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@d503, ad hominem is when you attack the other person WITHOUT addressing their arguments. It’s thrown around a lot on internet forums. I addressed your arguments. People also often seem to take opposing arguments as attacks. That does not seem to be a healthy mindset.

~”That is an opinion.”~

I never said it wasn’t. I also said more research should be done. You don’t seem to get why I referred to several of the quotes above (it doesn’t apply to all of them, mind you). It would be possible to test them. They’re not purely subjective, hypothetical situation or not.

Considering the name of your show, I’m pretty sure you know of its origins. Take the red pill and see the world for how it really is, etc. I think being able to distinguish falsifiable statements from non-falsifiable statements is a prerequisite for that. I see nothing wrong the name itself, I was just remarking on the irony of it in this situation.

Please specify what you’d like sources for. Again, the things I requested sources for could theoretically be proven wrong. A hypothetical situation does not change that. Your bathroom analogy doesn’t really apply here.

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Avatar of Alex
Alex (@alexishungry)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@dalniente, @d503,

Avoid what you’re doing right now ^^^
Stay on topic, haha.

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Avatar of Tine
Tine (@tine)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@dalniente,

1) In the United States, it’s cheaper for people to serve a life sentence than it is to carry out the death penalty.

true, but this is only to appease those who oppose the death penalty, lawyers create an uproar in the ignorant public about the death penalty to soften the courts ability to execute their client, the publicity of these cases start here, with the attorney, who is monetarily motivated to manipulate the system in whatever way he can to win, or delay, and uses public opinion as its primary defense. so, what you mentioned is a sign of a fair system, a system that takes all viewpoints into consideration and will even drag out and delay an execution until all points are heard.

2) You’re saying that “the punishment should fit the crime.” That seems to be open to many different interpretations.

no, there is only one, their testicles and penis penetrated an innocent, someone who did not deserve it, they CLEARLY cannot control the emotions their desires from testosteone elicit, they are a danger and there is clear, statistical repeat-offender correlation data to support they will just continue if their only punishment is, 5 years

3) Castration doesn’t necessarily solve the problem.

yes, it does, without the testicles the penis ceases to work, testosterone and the drive associated with it are gone. they will no longer have an overwhelming physical desire to take sex. yes, there is a mental aspect here as well, but this would solve the physical side, a hugeeee part of it.

4) Let’s chop off some hands while we’re at it. /sarcasm (Yes, I’m aware of chemical castration.)

meh, considering the damage these motherfuckers cause, the lifetime of self hatred and insecurity they invoke on their victims, i’d be cool with your sarcastic suggestion, they invoke no pity in my eyes as they have proven to be nothing but animals

5) Not all offenders are male.

this^ is kinda a red herring, sure, your right, but MOST ALL are, females only represent a smaaaalll portion, this is mainly a male problem

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Avatar of Tine
Tine (@tine)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@d503,

lol, omg, you’re so close to the thinking that caused this… too funny. I’d call it, ‘Empathy training” =D

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Avatar of Tine
Tine (@tine)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@egarim,

love se7en, great movie, i think you’re stretching what i am saying a lil bit if you think se7en is a good reference though, that guy killed innocents who only crime was to be an extreme of whatever sin / weakness they were enslaved to, that particular psychopath simply used the sin concept as a rational to kill and then receive the attention he felt he deserved, which was the point of the closing scenes,

so, not really. their genitals produce the testosterone that they cannot emotionally control, this is the logical solution, and remember, i did say:

–here is what I suggest, similar to the various checks and balances of the death penalty, based on severity and fact, when a child molester is convicted, he can receive 5 years – castration,–

NOT if you do it you get castrated, just the severe ones, like when they decide to execute ppl, the ones getting the castration will be the multiple victim, repeat offender assholes…

there is no way if someone you love was hurt by this evil man that you would oppose his castration, especially if you saw the scope of his actions and all the other innocents he’s hurt.

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Avatar of Bobby
Bobby (@bobbylloydxd)1 year, 9 months ago ago

Child molesters can all be killed in my opinion. Not even in a humane sense, in the most affordable way possible. 22 caliber shot directly into the cranial cavity. That costs what? about 10 cents? Maybe even death by baseball bat, that costs absolutely nothing. Fuck their peace and comfort.

I see no point in keeping them alive. If they are let out into society there is potential for them to hurt more children, If we keep them in prison it is a burden on our economy. I’m a forgiving person in most cases, but we have a responsibility to protect our children. The harsher the punishment the more likely these people are to control themselves. If they can’t control themselves, death by baseball bat to head.

I’m not comfortable throwing rapists or statutory rapists into this, unless they are repeat offenders. I am talking about unwarranted touch of a child under 16 years of age.

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Avatar of Egarim
Egarim (@egarim)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@tine,

I understand that the plot of the movie is not entirely befitting of your topic, but I am using the ending as a reference because it acts as insight into human nature.

“You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger”

Understand what that means. Two wrongs don’t make a right: impose a system that extreme and suddenly innocent people who are wrongly convicted will get castrated. Regardless, to castrate someone who has done wrong is to be no better than them. Castration, unless you are sure they have committed the crime, is irrational and excessive. Violence always begets violence, something that we as people have trouble understanding.

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Avatar of Tine
Tine (@tine)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@egarim,

see, i disagree, to rape them for raping an innocent would be to respond with anger, to deprive them of their ability to do it again, when, ***in the cases i am talking about***, they have shown that at any opportunity they will just continue, is a logical decision that corrects the problem immediately. not all people can evolve, some have been too damaged and have lived in it for too long to understand anything else,

what do you suggest we do with these people when there is a 20% chance of repeated sexual offenses?

1 out 5 continues. this is not good. knowing this statistic and doing nothing in addition to what we are doing is to turn a blind eye to the scope of the destruction and the generations of emotional damage they cause,

by their act they create more like them in the close ones of those they destroy, they cause the woman to live in fear and shame, consider the cause / effect of growing up under someone like this and how it may clear a similar path in their children’s lives. Rape is worse than murder because its effects do not simply get buried into the ground, no, unfortunately, they have to wonder the world, most of them never revealing they’d been raped in the first place, and leave only destruction in their wake.

there is a deeper concern here if you can empathize with the reality of the victim going forward after trauma and if you consider the fact that many who are caught, continue after their light +- 5 year sentence

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Avatar of Egarim
Egarim (@egarim)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@tine,

I understand your good intentions and logic. But why not just extend the sentence?

See, I get that you are using good logic but understand my own point: if we castrate rapists, are we going to sever the hands of thieves? Aren’t most major thieves repeat offenders? Should we cut off the right foot of drunk drivers?

Violence begets violence. You cannot force people to change. Resorting to extremes and in twenty years we can both take a look in the mirror and see the system, the monster, that we have created and become.

No matter how much it kills you to know that there is the possibility of a repeat offense. It is a greater tragedy to become a monster yourself. Let go of the burning coal; put the gun down. One monster is enough, don’t make it two.

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Avatar of
Anonymous (@)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@tine, well thank god you’re here to tell us what the right interpretation is.

So you’re advocating “actual” castration, not just chemical castration? It doesn’t solve the underlying problem: the mental side and how it manifests itself. Now, I wouldn’t necessarily be against chemical castration, but would you agree that we should have a better understanding of this so we could eventually address the underlying problem?

I don’t have a massive amount of sympathy for these people, but I also don’t think the mindsets many people have about this is really what we need. Yes, we should keep these people from harming others, but lopping off body parts isn’t going to address the root of the problem. Our justice system makes the assumption that we have free will.

Many people care more about revenge. Some even think having the government sanction something they’re punishing someone for is somehow going to make them “see the light.” Seriously: wtf?

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Avatar of Tine
Tine (@tine)1 year, 9 months ago ago

@dalniente,

don’t misunderstand, i am fine with chemical castration. i only said that about the other type bc, personally, i could care less about their comfort level, not that i am advocating that approach.

and again, i am only saying those that have shown a clear, black / white, continuation in the act that should deserve such a punishment, I AM NOT saying if they do, they get castrated, no, only repeat offenders, only those that have been given every possible bit of opportunity to change and said, ”fuck it, i like taking advantage of people,” by their actions

also, no need to get emotional, i am not, “here to tell us what the right interpretation is.’, this is only an opinion, just because my differs from yours does not mean i think i am superior.

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