Ultimately, in the final scene, are you an object being watched by another presence, or are you the presence, in who’s view an idea of yourself is watched?
Behind the ‘persona’, which means mask, who are you really?
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These types of things are really hard to talk about with words :) The whole idea of being watched by another presence or if you are the presence… when I do nitrous that all comes really clear to me…that it flip flops.. really hard to explain ;)
I’ve pondered too about “conversations.” The fast majority of conversing is simply “describing” what you see/think around you—and like he said.. that’s not really conversating. That may be why HEthens have a hard time relating to other people bc we actually try to conversate & not just “describe.”
Yeah, when I’m severely disassociated I am a presence separate from my own body. I just sort of check on my heart and stuff to make sure its still beating..
I’m guessing we are the presence watching the idea of ourselves. Because I can still think and relate things the way I do now (only on a much simpler level), but there is the obvious observation of my physical self. I judge myself, my habits, and realize things I can do to keep my body alive longer. But I feel like after its gone, whatever is on the inside will continue to feel the same way. Making me a presence rather than an object.
But then again, I haven’t died yet. So I’m not too sure.
Tough to tell when I’m trying to conceptualize being this ‘watching presence’ or when I actually am it. It’s a thin line between conceptualizing and knowing that I am treading right now. Who’s the one who’s uncertain though? My uncertainty is a conceptualization… so then what’s left beyond that? This thought is a conceptualization though as well. That’s as best as I can describe. “At every occasion I’ll be ready for the funeral”… This song just came on and it seems kind of fitting.
@v1kingfan, Both :)
Because, if you are the presence watching an idea of yourself, how can that idea know that it’s being watched? And at the same time, if you are an object being watched by a presence, how does that explain anything?
I think it’s a cool question if you delve into it deep enough, and if you chew on it for a little while.
Obviously I haven’t done enough psychedelics to ponder this properly Haha :D
I have a very boring “rational” idea of this, I think that I think of myself, as a result of my ability to understand the connection between things in the world, you could argue that nothing is certain and that all is relative, but that doesen’t really take you anywhere, now does it?
I like to think that the connections between things describe our world, and thus the fact that i can think of myself is just me creating an image/idea of myself, separate from myself. as a mental clone of myself, or conceptualization as mentioned by Mikey W. I don’t see any reason to “make up” an external viewer, because nothing really tells me that there is a such. So untill I am given a hint that this thing exists, be it a physical or mental experience under the influence or sober, I wont think of it as reality. This is also why I am not religious.
However it makes a lot of historical sense to acknowledge one’s limitations in terms of observation and understanding. E.g. we thought the earth was flat because that scale was to grand for us to realize tthe curvature of it. In the same way Einstein through abstract thoughts logically deducted adn prooved that spce is not defined through euclidean space and geometry but rather hyperbolic or non-euclidean, something that is still being researched, this idea comes from intricate ideas rather than our simple observation, because we seem to be able to proove that the total sum of the angles in a triangle is 180 degrees, but again it’s a matter of scale, the difference is on a too large scale for us to notice visually and so it appears that the world is different than it truly is. – in other words, I haven’t seen it so I don’t assume that it’s there, but I don’t assume that it isn’t because i haven’t seen that it is not there etc.