Official ‘Zeitgeist: Moving Forward’ Discussion

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Avatar of Jordan Lejuwaan
Jordan Lejuwaan (@jordan)    3 years, 5 months ago

The following documentary is the most important film you could possibly watch. It’s massive implications reach across the globe and cannot be denied. It will change the way you view the monetary system, the economy and the future of this world. Its claims almost sound like conspiracy, but the evidence it intelligently builds upon rules out any chance of that.

And do not be deterred by the 2hr 45 duration. If something is this important, would you really want it to be able to be squeezed into 10 minutes? Let’s cast away our modern 30-second attentions just this once because this is THAT important.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w

After watching this, I ask you three questions:

1) How convinced are you that these event will occur?
2) Do you think their solution is a plausible? That is, do you think the world will figure things out in time to implement it?
3) What do you think is the first step in solving this problem?

1 votes, posted 01.27.2011 at 10:47 pm
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Avatar of Em
Em (@emily)3 years, 3 months ago ago

Haha-yes I’m so wise :) TY Kayne!

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Avatar of Em
Em (@emily)3 years, 3 months ago ago

Haha-yes I’m so wise :) TY Kayne!

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Avatar of Kayne Wong
Kayne Wong (@kayne)3 years, 3 months ago ago

Lawl no Problem-O!

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Avatar of novaa
novaa (@novaa)3 years, 3 months ago ago

I just finished the film. Took me awhile because I went back and forth to watch a few Coachella performances streaming but I watched the whole film.

I do think the last hour is a little hard to swallow, especially getting people to dump their money. But I also think there is merit in some of the things that were said. What is so wrong with trying to help humans because they are humans? That said, there are many ways we could go about doing this that aren’t discussed in the film. For example, if everyone went vegetarian, we could stop world hunger. (Let’s not get into the vegetarian debate here, because it isn’t my point.) What I’m trying to say is I like some of the ideas presented but it definitely isn’t the surefire only way to help the human condition.

I do think that the part was accurate about the way we are raising our young. I do think there is obvious merit in that. Family is so important.

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Avatar of Brittney Novelly
Brittney Novelly (@novdog)3 years, 3 months ago ago

I think the most important point that the film is trying to make is that we MUST change the way we live. Most of society is brainwashed into thinking “this is human nature, this is the way we live and it cannot be changed.” If we continue to live in the ways that we do, the human race will not survive. The fact that we are realizing how messed up we are is great, because now we can take action and fix it. Although the film may not present the perfect answers to our problems, it is stimulating thought in thousands of minds.

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Avatar of Lindsay
Lindsay (@moonflower603)3 years, 3 months ago ago

Well put, Brittney! I completely agree.

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Avatar of Rubens Rodrigues
Rubens Rodrigues (@rmmrodri)3 years, 3 months ago ago

Who saw this video must see too this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeROnVUADj0
In this film Michael Moore’s explores the root causes of the global economic meltdown and takes a comical look at the corporate and political shenanigans that culminated in what Moore has described as the biggest robbery in the history of this country the massive transfer of U.S. taxpayer money to private financial institutions.

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Anonymous (@)3 years, 3 months ago ago

I’ve enjoyed this thread immensely! The epic discussions between Jordan and Peter in the beginning were very inspired, on both fronts, and I felt a definite flow while understanding the economy on a capitalist, central planned, or alternative monetary system(s).
This is my first post on HE, and I’ve been digging on this site for the past three days, finding valid arguments that I agree and disagree with.

While I see a discussion on economy taking place, a social science that claims to account for human choice, randomness, and potential activity, I haven’t found the “Zoom Out” perspective on every post, just 1/2 or so.

In the end, I believe a discussion rested upon knowledge of human choice must begin with just that. To understand “choice”, we should understand “influence” and “desire”. The desire of your internal motives towards the influence posited by the external environment.
I find common society is informed largely by external environment, with subjective internal feedback. We are upside down. But it’s not so dire.

The world is shifting, and a new generation will implant it’s moral roots. I consider only 200 years ago, slavery was a luxury enjoyed by the upper class. After thousands of years, however, Western society finally leapt past slavery and is now more or less free of direct slavery. However the “work for me” attitude is still commonplace. Money just keeps the worker dedicated. Often this works. If work is found enjoyable, money is a acceptable reinforcer.

But man wasn’t meant to stick to only one task, as a cog in a wheel. Work can shift, change, bounce around. Personal relationships can be formed with those you work with, and you can open restaurants and tax offices, swimming pools or parks with an individual who wants to make that their life’s work. It’s no longer “work for me” but “work with me”. I find that to be the future economy. I think the advances in communication and transport, resource development and new energy will power this economy. And money will just be the effect of success, not the cause.

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Avatar of
Anonymous (@)3 years, 3 months ago ago

I’ve enjoyed this thread immensely! The epic discussions between Jordan and Peter in the beginning were very inspired, on both fronts, and I felt a definite flow while understanding the economy on a capitalist, central planned, or alternative monetary system(s).
This is my first post on HE, and I’ve been digging on this site for the past three days, finding valid arguments that I agree and disagree with.

While I see a discussion on economy taking place, a social science that claims to account for human choice, randomness, and potential activity, I haven’t found the “Zoom Out” perspective on every post, just 1/2 or so.

In the end, I believe a discussion rested upon knowledge of human choice must begin with just that. To understand “choice”, we should understand “influence” and “desire”. The desire of your internal motives towards the influence posited by the external environment.
I find common society is informed largely by external environment, with subjective internal feedback. We are upside down. But it’s not so dire.

The world is shifting, and a new generation will implant it’s moral roots. I consider only 200 years ago, slavery was a luxury enjoyed by the upper class. After thousands of years, however, Western society finally leapt past slavery and is now more or less free of direct slavery. However the “work for me” attitude is still commonplace. Money just keeps the worker dedicated. Often this works. If work is found enjoyable, money is a acceptable reinforcer.

But man wasn’t meant to stick to only one task, as a cog in a wheel. Work can shift, change, bounce around. Personal relationships can be formed with those you work with, and you can open restaurants and tax offices, swimming pools or parks with an individual who wants to make that their life’s work. It’s no longer “work for me” but “work with me”. I find that to be the future economy. I think the advances in communication and transport, resource development and new energy will power this economy. And money will just be the effect of success, not the cause.

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Avatar of maurice
maurice (@mak09)3 years, 3 months ago ago

Wow…It’s another eye-opener and another clarion call for awareness that sadly sounds and probably will echo off into the darkness. I really liked most of the movie, though, and thought alot of information was correct, but I thought the ending was gay and undermined the whole message before it as overly dramatic and indeed there were parts in this movie that I found overly dramatic and non-realistic

1. resources will definitely run out and the market will definitely hang on to it’s cash cow (oil) until it is convinced beyond a doubt that there is something that can take it’s place.

2. lol. This is where the film turns from good facts to fiction and I had to do a double-take. this film is doing what they are claiming the economists are doing, which is blaming all the worlds troubles on the one evil economy monster. It really killed my buzz when they said that the worlds banks can be removed overnight without any recourse. Really? And that planned city is as much a waste of time and effort as the current economy today. They assume that people will just become good when the boogeyman has gone away. In reality, if jails are half full of “victims-of-society” the other half is true criminals who have an IMPULSE to do the things they do regardless of their external environment. That planned city would fail because someone would rise with the will to profit. So long as their is the need to profit, whatever system you bring forward the same old problem will re-invent itself again and again. You can only hope for some sort of balance.

3. I guess I said it all already. There is no solving the problem. We get rid of dollars, someone will find something else of value, institutionalize it, and the system re-invents itself in your Camelot. You can only hope to mitigate it just like the founding fathers could only hope to mitigate the eventual corruption and overpowering of government over civil liberties with the constitution.

But overall, I was impressed with the movie and George Carlin at the end was a great and welcome voice.

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Avatar of Max Moon
Max Moon (@maxmoon)3 years, 2 months ago ago

So now that most of us have a better understanding of what is BROKEN about the current system. Many of us would like to know what to do in the interim phase of this movement, and start working to FIX thousands of years of social deterioration. I for one would really like to see a fourth installment of this series focusing on both the inherent lack of hands-on current education practices (especially in America) and the wondrous results of permaculture.
Education: We mine the minds of the young for technicality just as we strip mine minerals from the earth. SO inefficient. From the ages of 4-24 we send children and young adults from room to room to stare at walls where they are bombarded with facts, not skills. We then pressure the kids into regurgitating those facts as if their future hangs in the balance. It does not, my friends. Don’t misunderstand, It is important to know history, lest our presence be weak and our future be in a haze. It may also be prudent to have bilingual and trilingual generations but aside from that, allow only those interested in math to pursue math. Let them chase their dreams. Otherwise it is a colossal waste of time and talent. Einstein stopped going to school as a boy. You’d be amazed at how ridiculously easy it is to educate people on how to create a veritable garden of eden in any subtropical and temperate climate, and even start to reverse desertification over time. I’ve seen many promotional videos from the permaculture research institute in Austrailia on the subject, It tells you exactly how to do it, step by step, but our 30 second attention span will not last. An enticing commercial needs to be produced to get people interested, so they can actually learn how to do something. It will solve most of the world’s problems. Unemployed? Perfect. use those govt-supplied coke rags, survival tickets, whatever you call them and Build yourself a food-forest and garden. It will abolish starvation, stratified social hierarchy, rampant consumerism, oil dependence, the inherent slavery of employment, inequality. It will not be televised (but should be). Honestly, what more could you want? This is our Independence Day.

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Avatar of Jim
Jim (@jimm)3 years, 1 month ago ago

Some solid responses in here – great to see :-)

To any doubters I would simply put it this way:-
We live in a competitive society where there are winners and losers. This is not a compassionate way to live.
A tiny minority of winners (1%) own 40% of the world’s wealth – this is clearly insane!
The problem is that the winners control the media and politicians, who in turn control education, law-making and taxation.
Education and the media are the most powerful influences in shaping the way people think – it literally programs people to live in certain ways – the most obvious one’s are to conform (we generally don’t like to be excluded from the majority) and to support consumerism and nationalism in all it’s forms.
The internet is the best chance that free-thinkers have of helping to de-program those who have even a glimmer of considering that the current system is flawed.
Zeitgiest movies can definitely help in this endeavour, especially now that the link with the venus project has disintegrated.

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Avatar of Matt P
Matt P (@mkp843)3 years, 1 month ago ago

This film is brilliant… you must watch it… It acknowledges what no system ever has… there is a finite amount of resources available… and preservation is far more important that profit

I have to watch the other ones now!! Can I please have links…

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Avatar of Alec
Alec (@alec7)3 years, 1 month ago ago

Ok so I agree with almost everything in this video.

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Avatar of Alec
Alec (@alec7)3 years, 1 month ago ago

Ok so I agree with almost everything in this video; however, the implementation seems unsound to me.

The profit motive definitely corrupts politicians, and makes it harder for us citizens to get what we want, but who would be in charge in a Resource Based Economy. Not in the sense of a “ruler” but decisions will have to be made. Who will make them?

Also, I understand MANY jobs can be replaced by technology and a reallocation of resources, however, there will still be jobs remaining that require a specialization. The video claims people will WANT to do certain jobs, which I agree with, but what about the ones that no one wants to do?

Also, lets say I want a swimming pool in my back yard. It seems there would be now way to attain this, even if I am willing to work for it.

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Avatar of Jim
Jim (@jimm)3 years, 1 month ago ago

Hi Alec – most people don’t see what’s wrong with the current system….. not as a totality…. they may have areas that they find problematic, but to see that the whole paradigm is faulty is in itself a major shift.

Having said that, it’s always easier to look at something that does exist and see what’s not working, than to envision something that would work but doesn’t presently exist.

I agree that the implementation in the film is quite dubious – and now there’s a split from the Venus Project it will allow people in the movement more freedom to explore.

I think that if you simply removed interest from the monetary system, and made it impossible for the majority of the wealth to be funneled into the hands of the few – that would have major implications immediately.
Then we need to change taxation etc. to encourage sustainability and discourage unsustainable practices.

In a nutshell, the current system rewards greed and selfishness……. we need to devise a system that rewards generosity and unselfishness.

If enough people see that simple truth, then we can work together to make that happen.

But for any of these actions to be possible, enough people need to see clearly what’s wrong and to demand change….. this requires spreading the word and making a stand….. that’s where the movement is currently focused.

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Avatar of Matt P
Matt P (@mkp843)3 years, 1 month ago ago

Alec I agree with you… the film only acknowleged (for me) that the current path is a bust… but it did give what I think is the right founation for a proper system, that there is a finite amount of supplies, and we are all one organism… but it doesn’t give any credible plan… just a foundation… I think that if the economic motive became preservation and funtion of products, instead of more sales and profit (they make shitty stuff that breaks on purpose, like really), everything would be waaaaay cheaper, and way more better quality…… and ppl would be so motivated and happy…

I think you have to have money, so you can earn the pool you want in your backyard, cause I’m dam sure not building it for you for free, just sayin :) (i’m joking, trying not to rant to much to make a point) .. you need taxes too, which pay for the greater good, technologies, renewable energy, abundant food, awesome cities, but the film doesn’t talk about the concept.. I think if you take away money, you end up wih communism and welfare…. but money cannot be the mean and the end… this film makes profit look disgusting….

But the film just says, wouldn’t utopia be great… yea sure, we would live with skyrails, and everything would be automated, and free energy and whatnot.. but other than saying the current system is a bust, it gives no plan or concept of how to get to utopia… It doesn’t say how the socio-economic system would work… Which is more complicated, at least to me, than acknowledging there are only so many resources…

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Avatar of Matt P
Matt P (@mkp843)3 years, 1 month ago ago

Jim I think you really know what’s going on, thanks alot for the links btw..

How do we get corporate America to acknowlege this video… that is actually my best idea. It’s mind boggling to me how much power and control the system has, and I credit just about all of it to corporate America. When all the money you could dream of is not enough, I just don’t know what to say…… THEY ARE PSYCHOPATHS!

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Avatar of Jim
Jim (@jimm)3 years, 1 month ago ago

Hi Matt, you’re welcome, and thanks for the vote of confidence :-)

I feel that maybe it’s too much to expect the big Corporations to listen…. they have too much to lose in the short term… and unfortunately, short-sightedness is endemic in most corporations.
You must know from your own experience, that when you really want something or want to do something, it’s hard to listen to people trying to dissuade you. Well, just imagine your big house, your car, your kids private schooling etc. etc. are all dependent upon you going along with the official line…….. how many people do you think would give all that up and stand in opposition?

I feel the best chance is to bring awareness to the students and people just starting their working life, also the older generation that are retired/retiring…. they have much less to lose, and may be more open to see the problems in the system and want to do something about it.

It’s a massive challenge, and we will need to be creative about it. I think it’s also important that we don’t just become haters of the situation, we have to rise above it and create a better world.

I’m always looking for ways to get people to explore and consider the situation…….
I sometimes ask them if it would be OK for a large family of say 10 children, for the strongest to keep half the house for himself and 7 of the others look after him and 5 of them have to sleep out in the street and 2 are literally starving and living hand to mouth in the gutter……

That’s basically what we have in the world today – and it doesn’t have to be this way, it’s just that currently the strongest makes the rules, and the next 4 have varying degrees of comfort and are just trying to improve their lot and don’t take time to see that it could be different, and the others are not being listened to and hardly have a voice.

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Avatar of Bohdan
Bohdan (@bohdan)3 years, 1 month ago ago

I do enjoy the diversity of opinion in these comments.  To the nay-sayers, I think a good look at the often overwhelming scope of what a paradigm can be is in order. What you learned within the system in discussion is not without a degree of bias??  There is a self-referential problem in there somewhere, no?  
Another point raised, by both sides, is that there is a problem of limited resource.  The scarcity model is a product and a cornerstone of this system.  The abundance model, however absurd it may sound, is something people need to start looking into.  Unless you believe that Planck’s length really is as small as it gets and that physicists really should employ “re-normalization”, then you must honor the fractal!  It’s infinite!  I’m generally wary of absolutes, but infinity takes no sides, it’s all or nothing.  Do you really think energy is limited? Escape your paradigm! 

My love to you all. 

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Avatar of Max Malone
Max Malone (@maxievelli)2 years, 8 months ago ago

Hi all, I am still trying to figure out who I tend to agree with the most, right now it seems to me that… really neither side sources any information. I haven’t been able to find any really reliable data substantiating either side of this debate but it seems to me that capitalism is still a good system, it’s worked in this country for 100′s of years and hasn’t brought about any of the consequences mentioned in the film and I don’t understand why the next 50 years will be any different. But then claims that the film is wrong also show no evidence. The only real statistic publish so far (and it is never sourced) is the whole 10% of people control 60% of the wealth or whatever variation you are using (I’ve seen as low as 1% of people to 90% of money, but as high as 10% people to 40% money)

Also it seems to me that this film is trying to say that certain resources are limited when in fact they are *practically* limitless. Please just listen to my logic before you discredit my assertion entirely. There IS a limit to the amount of a given resource, I’ll use oil for an example here, that exist on this planet. However, this limit is only theoretical. For all practical purposes we can say that we will never run out, it will just become harder and harder and more expensive to obtain oil. We will have to dig deeper and deeper to get this resource and eventually, after a long time, we will be “out”. That is, the cost of extracting the oil will be greater than the profit we can get off of it. Now, when this day comes, which is far in the future, there is still more discovered oil offshore in America than the world has used since the model T

“We should be able to produce at least 150 billion barrels of oil to maybe 1.0 trillion barrels of oil if the majority of these plays can be water flooded” (http://seekingalpha.com/article/256403-how-much-oil-does-the-u-s-have-in-the-ground-what-does-it-mean-for-investors). This is from an investment site, you might think of this as credible or not credible depending on how you look at it. I like to think that an investment site tries to keep itself profitable by being accurate, otherwise people who used the site will no longer trust it.

http://energy.usgs.gov/OilGas/AssessmentsData/NationalOilGasAssessment.aspx this shows the amount of oil per united states on-shore shale. It adds up to over 100 million barrels but I don’t have a source for offshore. Keep in mind that it isn’t economical right now to mine gas in the US because we have such strict bureaucratic policies. These policies keep us tied to the middle east for oil, but that’s another story.

USGS also estimates that about 1 trillion barrels have been used worldwide to date.

Point being, there’s no such thing as a limited resource, only a point at which you can’t get more of it with economic efficiency. When that day approaches, it will also become profitable to have alternative energy sources. But once again that’s for another debate.

I liked the way the film proved that capitalism must breed in a quality where products will not last too long, but I would also like to make the counterpoint that many things are made better by technology. If technology were stagnant, then companies would be forced to make cars break down after 5 years and computers to die after 2. This is not the case however. Every 2 years there is a far better computer and every few years there are far better cars. Technology makes this product cycle sustainable. Now, I have a apple computer that my dad bought in 1990, before I was even born, and my car is from 1988. Both of these function beautifully, amazingly well. But of course, many choose to buy new computers (myself included, I could never USE that computer, lol, no wifi) and new cars because who wants a car with no AC? (other than a poor college student). In this case, there is a product cycle that has no negative consequences. I have chosen to buy a car that doesn’t have AC because it is cheaper and I don’t need ac. Someone else may choose a more expensive car that does have such commodities. This product cycle is sustainable and is even a good thing. As for those of you who think big corporations don’t listen… look around you, you are being the change. Many companies do the most they can to support charities and to be green. This is because nowadays lots of people will be more attracted to these companies and they can actually make more money by supporting these causes. Maybe some of them are even being benevolent out of the kindness of their hearts. This wasn’t the case 20-25 years ago. I’m still in the dark about the zeitgeist thing, but we can use the capitalist system to our advantage! This I know! By only buying products from companies that are ethical, and by making our voices heard and letting them know we will only buy these products, we can change the corporations ourselves without changing the system.

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Avatar of Max Malone
Max Malone (@maxievelli)2 years, 8 months ago ago

I suppose I seem to support capitalism more. I agree that there should be a change at some level, but I don’t know if I agree that zeitgeist is the answer. I would still like to learn more and I would LOVE to see some hard data or use of logic like in the capitalism-breeds-product life example in the film. I would especially like to see data on the debt of the world and total money in circulation because I can’t find this data. That’s probably because it doesn’t exist because the amount of debt is incalculable as is the amount of money in circulation. If this is the case then I would urge everyone on this site to remain neutral about that statistic, because there’s no proof either way for or against any of the ideas in the film. I would question any one statistic if unsourced and any one claim if not backed by evidence. I can to a person that has never seen the ocean that it is blue and green all day, but until I give them a picture, or give them a spectrograph of the ocean from the marine institute of oceanology, or maybe take a large lake and say “this lake is as the ocean is but on a smaller scale” then I haven’t given any real evidence and they have noooo reason to believe me. Now, I like to believe people tell the truth the majority of the time : ) but sometimes these things get warped in these arguments and hard data is needed to iron it out.

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Avatar of Eric
Eric (@blankey)2 years, 5 months ago ago

If you have not watched this yet, watch it. It will be doing yourself and the world a favor.

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Avatar of Mike
Mike (@mikedvs15)2 years, 5 months ago ago

Had this one my computer for about 4 months not knowing what is was really about.

Fo sho a real “eye opener”.

the one part on health reminded me of this documentary i watch about healthy eating and how people with cancer could be taking healthier suppliments like vitamin C iv’s instead of having chemo and how this relates to the power of money and how persciption drugs are all about money.

found it disturbing how the more sick people we have the richer the companies get.

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