The God Delusion and Atheists Uniting
I’m currently reading “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins. He talks about how there are most likely a lot more atheists in the world than are reported in most demographic surveys. There are several issues that this affects:
1) Atheists are often made to feel uncomfortable talking about their non-belief, for fear of blowback from those that are religious. Basically, atheists are concerned about being discriminated against by prejudice individuals. They think that they are somewhat alone in the world with their non-belief.
2) Atheists are hardly represented in politics, the media, and other areas. There are a few atheist organizations, but nothing that compares to any of the mainstream religions. This means that Christians, for example, have lobbyists and propaganda to further their agendas; while the atheists virtually have no representation, no voice.
For those of us that are atheists, what do we do about this? I strongly believe that it is our generation’s responsibility to make this turn into enlightenment. A new age of science and love that is not guided by myths that others use to control and discriminate with.
Does anyone agree with me? Disagree? Where do we go from here? How do atheists unite?
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It’s interesting how confident and forthright people are in the validity of their metaphysics, denouncing the perspectives of some of the most brilliant people alive today. Years and years of scientific exploration and progression have led us to the current claims today, and many of you think just because you’ve reached some conclusion through reason and experience that you must hold the keys to ultimate knowledge about the universe and that modern science is blind. News fucking flash, there may just be people who maintain a more accurate picture of how the universe works than you. Countless scientists, philosophers, etc have had religious/mystical experiences and not had their wits tossed to the wayside. It is possible to experience self transcendence without claiming that you are beholden to universal truth.
How many of you would truly go in front of thousands of people to debate your position against Sam Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens (if he was still alive), Krauss, Pinker, etc? Do you think you would truly be willing to accept that offer and persuade thousands that your metaphysics is more plausible than the explanations that current leading intellectuals are pointing toward?
This is not to claim that science has all the answers, but that is just the point of science. We don’t claim to know all the answers, ever. This is why we continue to search and progress. Science is always replaced with better science, not unfalsifiable claims or faulty metaphysics.
“as you are a ****, you are like this”
“as I am a ****, I am like this”
I am me and I have beliefs that may or may not be true and if they’re proven otherwise, I accept them to be false or half true. It doesn’t make me anything. I don’t squeeze myself to fit into a label.
With concern to this topic, if you really really want to put a label on me, label me label-less…
@billmasterson098, No worries. By the way, regarding your question of the origin of the universe, there was no “big bang.” No beginning. Existence has always existed, and will always exist. Here are 2 links for you to check out regarding this matter. Lemme know what you think after you check these out, bro.
@billmasterson098, You believe in NO-God. Thats a belief. And your only goal is to be right about it. Just like religion. You won’t reply directly to any of these specific points because you have only one intention, which is to be RIGHT…just like religion.
Atheists saying they don’t believe in a god is just as unfounded as monotheists believing in one specific god character. They both assume too much.
As someone who’s been both a Catholic and an Atheist, I can now look at both sides more objectively. A lot of atheism revolves around hating monotheism and trying to prove it wrong and spread their beliefs (much like religion). And Christianity, well, I’m not even gonna get into it, because I’m not their biggest fan either. I reject any labels, and religions, or lack thereof, impose very rigid labels. All they do is restrict a follower to their predetermined set of beliefs. I respect anyone’s beliefs as long as they don’t shove them down my throat. I do like debates on the topic, but they usually turn into arguments.
Someone mentioned Deepak Chopra, so here’s an appropriate quote: “Religion is belief in someone else’s experience. Spirituality is having your own experience.”
Bottom line for me: reach your own conclusions, but accept the fact that you don’t know anything. And reject labels – all they do is restrict thought.
@billmasterson098, Lol, it’s not really a higher power. Instead of worshiping a god, spirituality makes us godly. In other words, since you and I are the same thing, as well as everyone else on the planet, we are all god, because we are all part of universal consciousness. That’s what Einstein was referring to, not some god or higher power. But believe whatever you wish to believe. To argue with you about this would be utterly pointless. That’s the beauty of life – whatever you believe becomes your truth.
You may notice my user name is an anagram for atheist.
Anyway, I was reading the same book and just cannot finish it, the fact that he is such a “basher” just reminds me of all the other aggressive beliefs out there. Yes Religion is branded as such, but there is also allot of other self-serving propaganda out there being sold as”raising awareness”.
My reasons are personal, but I essentially decided that I could not going on living life harboring hate for the higher being. So I let it all go, each to their own as long as it doesn’t harm others.
I find it humorous, those who’s own beliefs, or non-beliefs, are so fragile that they are desperate to convince anyone and everyone to see the world their way. I mean, I have found my own truths and have my own beliefs, I really could care less what everyone else believes.
The attachment people have for others to believe what they believe comes from the need to be reassured of their beliefs. Let go of this attachment and you’ll have peace of mind. IMO
@Dafunks, “You are wrong in saying Atheism is like a religion. Claiming something is not there is not the same as claiming it is. Claiming it is needs proof. It is for the person claiming it is real to show the evidence. It is not for the person saying something is not real to prove it…”
I’m only comparing them in some aspects. They are obviously very different.
Atheism by definition states that you DON’T believe in a god. That you absolutely believe there is no god. And that is simply an unfounded assumption. To reach such an absolute decision without a logical basis is foolish. I definitely believe that the Christian views of god are absolutely untrue, but the concept of a godly force is plausible and theoretically possible, hence my stance.
“No. a Atheist looks at what is shown and proven or theologically proven. A God has never been proven in any way. This does NOT make it on par with a theory. The chances of something like a God being true is so remote that it is not worth beliving,”
No, like I said above, atheism literally means no believing in gods – lack of theism. Generally atheists are scientifically and logically driven, but that’s not what atheism is. Atheism is a really narrow label, really. It means something so simple, yet people try to extend it to mean other things, while still subscribing to the label.
“Saying “you cant disprove God so it must be true” is laughable. You cant disprove anything but that does not make it true. If you would give the evidence of God Existing it would be in the low 1% along with Ghosts, Fairies, Easter Bunny and Harry Potter.”
I never said that. At all. Reread all my posts in this thread. I feel like I explained things eloquently and accurately for once. And by the wording of that, you are pretty much saying that even if there was evidence for a god, you wouldn’t believe it? Because that is just straight up stubborn. Notice how I’ve worded things – how I say “a god” or “a godly force.” That is because I think that people characterize god too much. God may be a force, an algorithm, the origin of everything, or god may even be all of existence in which the universe exists. God could even be a result of extreme evolution over the course of the universe’s lifespan. The universe is far too large to rule that out. There may be multiple godly forces as well. There may be none. The point is that most atheists reject the idea of a Christian god, but don’t stay open to the possibility of the abstract idea and the vast possibilities of what the concept of god may actually be. “God” is definitely not an appropriate word for it, it’s just more relatable. But discard all of your assumptions about the word and think of it more abstractly.
Hope you can understand where I’m getting at and why I so vehemently reject labels. There are too many possibilities and we still have 99.99% (not an accurate number) of the universe to discover.
@ijesuschrist, I do not believe he exists. Same as I do not believe the Tooth Fairy, Big Foot or The Blair Witch exist… can I say for 100% sure they do not? No. Can you? Does this now mean that I am a Tooth Fairy believer? Am I Big Foot believer? No.
I am 100% fine with you believing I am whatever you wish I to be though. That I can say with 100% certainty.
@billmasterson098, It wasn’t intended for you, it’s just the usual arguing going on when talking about religion. I just recently started participating in the shittiest possible topic for discussion to answer myself some questions. I really hate religious people and atheists. Which just leaves me without prejudice towards them because I see them both as people with different qualities rather than a product of society. With respect to both, even if it’s hard to stand their useless babble, that’s what both sides of the question miss very often, but demand to the world to validate them as more humane. I don’t think banning religions is a cure for that or naively thinking people are going to become significantly more tolerable to each other if they share the same beliefs or disbeliefs.
People are incredibly gullible no matter if they’re atheists or religious. And there is proof. They both somehow believe that they can change the whole world for the better when they both can’t be even considerate to each other. It’s not in their capabilities. They suck.
Fuck my species.
@billmasterson098, Damn. That is very interesting. I wish I could say… Maybe my own personal thoughts on it are “Yes I think they will be the ones to find the answers” I think once they do we will all be able to understand them in some way.
I do believe that we will find the truth. I believe it is not far away. We have done things that we should not be able to do already (The Higgs for one). This is a crazy thing to build… We did it though… all on a hunch and a theory that many believed was not true. It is an amazing story when you look into it.
I do believe we will find all the answers. I do not believe we have them now… Just because we do not have them does not make a God the reason.
We once believed Thunder was a Angry God…. We found out what it was and that God died. We once believed Earth was held up by A God/Human and now that God is dead. We once believed a God rolled the Sun… now he is dead.
When we find these things Gods die. People latch on to them as Evidence of a God now… Silly childish people.
Just because we have no answers for some things does not make it a God. That is a very childish thing to think.
I was raised Christian. I was raised this way strictly until my mother left this one church. Then I went to a Christian school.
When i left I went to collage and then found that much of what I knew was lies. I believed in the Flood, Adam and Eve and everything the Bible told me. I studied the Bible from when I was a child…
When I found out about how old the earth was and all these basic things I felt angry. Finding out you are brainwashed by people you love is painful.
When I was younger I argued against Evolution even though I knew NOTHING about it. I was told all the things Christians spew out… I was 100% ignorant and brainwashed.
I guess my studies and teachings help me now. I know more than most Christians do about the Bible. I also studied other religions and dead ones.
I love religion though… strange as it sounds. I just love it like I love Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings. I see it for what it is, disgusting outdated fairy tales.
@khandero, I do think it’s unfounded, because lack of evidence is not the same thing as countering evidence. I mean, I do admit that I find the concept of characterizing a god such as a lot of religions do to be quite arrogant, narcissistic, presumptuous, blind, and overly personalized. It’s idealistic, and idealism is very far from realism, for whatever that word is even worth.
And on the other hand, there are atheists, whose label basically dictates the disbelief in any godly entities. It’s so stern, so absolute. Metaphorically, it’s like killing a caterpillar before finding out it will turn into a butterfly. It closes the door to new discoveries; which is ironic since most atheists tend to lean towards science but refuse to keep an open mind.
“You need to be awake to the fact that you don’t know, and that is the beginning of starting to know.” – Andrew Stone
In the end, both extremes assume too much about that which we don’t yet know anything about.
P.S. – I bookmarked the video. I’ll watch it soon. :)
@khandero, The video is another ignorant stand point by atheists.
They take the vantage point of a christian or religious context of ‘God’ – A god that is somehow comparable to the human mind set.
A narrow definition of God by any means.
God does not have to be a person, a spirit, a thing that interferes or empathizes with humanity or anything in this reality. God could be a cold, calculating algorithm of life. God could be a fractal of meaning, ever repeating patterns of the universe, revealing meaning only in other meaning. God could be a paradox. God could be a hologram. God could be energy itself. God could be matter. God could be none of the above.
To say that GOD DOES NOT EXIST is as naive as saying GOD EXISTS.
@Dafunks, @ijesuschrist, Science admits a degree of uncertainty to every principle, to disregard that is to disregard science. Science by definition is agnosticism; you can accept science as fact only to the degree of available evidence, and I believe also to the degree of the paradigm of the intellectual/spiritual state.
@stett454, I believe in some kind of definition of God, but it is more based on quantum metaphysics and a nonlinear/nonlocal universal consciousness that underlies all existence, however I ultimately believe it is irrelevant.
I say “God is the line between the relevant and the irrelevant” Atheists will do better to consider that statement. I think cause/effect psychology is the most relevant issue to humanity, so everything else is more or less just a curiosity.
If I considered myself an Atheist I would push other Atheists to drop the whole “justify my beliefs” thing and get on with relevant work.
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”
@beyond, No one is “BORN” a Christian or Muslim. They are brainwashed into being these things.
You also need to read this book as you clearly have no understanding of what you are trying to insult. You assume too much.
@truthseeker, I am not sure if it is all over the world but Atheists do sort of have a Chruch. It is called The Humanist Church ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism ) , I have seen many people use it as being a Atheist takes away many freedoms religious people sadly get.
@Loop, You are wrong in saying Atheism is like a religion. Claiming something is not there is not the same as claiming it is. Claiming it is needs proof. It is for the person claiming it is real to show the evidence. It is not for the person saying something is not real to prove it…
If I say “Look! A Fairy is on my leg!” It is not for you to disprove this. It is for me to show it is.
An Atheist is not the same as a religious person. By saying this is like saying we have to disprove everything the human mind to come up with.
No. a Atheist looks at what is shown and proven or theologically proven. A God has never been proven in any way. This does NOT make it on par with a theory. The chances of something like a God being true is so remote that it is not worth beliving,
Saying “you cant disprove God so it must be true” is laughable. You cant disprove anything but that does not make it true. If you would give the evidence of God Existing it would be in the low 1% along with Ghosts, Fairies, Easter Bunny and Harry Potter.
Now, I would love Harry Potter to be real. Sadly I have to let go of this dream and look at reality.
@rajivnelvoy, Great post (Your first one). I loved the way you wrote that :)
@billmasterson098, I am not saying Islamic people are not starting wars. It is in their religion to start wars (More than Christian texts). I am just saying that they are not the only ones. Even Buddhists are starting wars right now (Against Islamist’s). We only think it is worse now because of 24/7 news. We have it in our faces all the time. News is instant now.
Christians have murdered billions of people. Islamic texts have done the same. The only difference is that Christians changed and evolved their religions to move with the times… Islam did not really do this.
What I am trying to say is that when you get 2 religions they will always disagree when you have commandments like the Christian 10.
Rule one: You shall have no other Gods but me.
Rule Two: You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
Rule three: You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
And so on. It is not looking good is it?
“If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky… Take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. – Deut 17:2-7″
“They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. – 2 Chron 15:12-13″
“Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases…you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. – Deuteronomy 13:13-19:”
I could list more and more. This is the Christian GOD. This is who the AMERICAN Legal system and Presidents believe in. Is it no wonder they are in so many wars? is it no wonder that when you have 2 religions they cant co-exist?
People play the game of saying “Ohh! We can get along” and it may work for a short time. When people get extreme bad things happen.
You never get this in Science. You just get huffs and puffs from people who disagree… maybe even some tears.
@thelegend0210, will definitley look into this guy, favourited his page…
always got to look at both sides of the argument you know?.. haha
curiosity lol….it can keep you up from night untill morning, from 11.45am untill 9.48am..