the question of religion

2 years, 6 months ago

Is religion man made or divine?

September 14, 2012 at 9:32 am

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Profile photo of  Anonymous (@) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

@birdie, It’s a tumor of logic.

Edit: I redact the previous statement. Religion: A tumor of the MIND, it metastasizes from logical to all aspects of the mind.

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Profile photo of Hushed Hushed (@nicktett) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

It’s man-made. There is no observable evidence and no testable statements made in religion to consider it a part of the natural world. I think if God exists and intervenes in our world then we should be able to prove a presence because physical entities would be changed based on his will. If he does not intervene, then there is no proof for his existence beyond what our minds can conjure up and claim as proof. If it’s a ‘matter of faith’ then there are an infinite number of things that we can have a ‘matter of faith’ in – each one as probable as god. I can faithfully believe in unicorns, elephants that determine my destiny and the sentience of pencils – none of these can be disproved. The fact that people born in Christian societies are likely to become Christians and those born in Hindu societies likely to become Hindu, etc. show that your belief is a function not of free-thought or divine intervention; rather, your belief is a function of what adults in your society agree to make believe in. Why is Santa different than a Christian God? It’s a fairy-tale told to make people feel better about themselves. To claim that anyone has knowledge of what happens after death is ridiculous – that doesn’t mean that you err on the side of there being God because there is more evidence that sentience is a result of brain structure and that brain structure (proteins, enzymatic activities) stop at death and the atoms that make up our body decay back into the universe (which to me is WAY more beautiful and intriguing than religion/god).

Religion, the organization of systems of belief, definitely is man-made. I always wonder if, in modern society, if religious influences were removed then would people still come to the conclusion that there is god? Or would they follow a more humanistic way of living still following moral codes? Organization of people around a God is a good and easy way to manipulate the masses (See: Karl Marx, rhetoric used against US and against terrorists in the “War on Terror”) and to otherize whole groups of people.

I would check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE
If you do end up looking at the rebuttals against this piece (which there are some) then please read the answer to the rebuttals.

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Profile photo of Mike Mike (@mtdeffely) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

I dont think it matters. If you search for the truth you will find it if you look with an open mind and accept truth. But people get caught up that you have to do things a certain way and follow what other people do and what they tell you. That is the flaw in religion to me, and im christian and unfortunately christians get a bad rap cause of the pure ignorance of today’s religious organizations.

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

Religion has been built on the observances and theories of philosophers. Those observances are of NATURE and human behaviour, which is natural in itself. The fundamental principle of religion is to inspire us to kindness toward each other because people have decided that kindness is a good thing, while hurting each other is a bad thing, and they came to this conclusion by way of another aspect of human nature, empathy.
So religion at its most basic principle is to inspire kindness toward each other, even when a religion does not have a diety, it is indentifiable by such a mark. Now when you get into the metaphysical aspects of religion, this was an attempt to merge conclusions drawn from observances of NATURE into this principle for motivating people toward kindness to each other.
All you can say really is that mataphysics is theories about what is going on here. Religion is simply empathy, knowing what pleasure and pain is and recognizing it in others, then prefering the pleasure as an ideal so you seek to give it to others as you would like them to reciprocate. But the threat of punishment and promise of reward was another way for those without empathy to be compelled to kindness, an appeal to greed and fear.
Then you have theocracy which is taking metaphysical beliefs and trying to use them to motivate kindness between people. One tool of that is as I said, the threat of punishment and the promise of reward but because constantly rewarding people was expensive and difficult, and punishing people was not always an option, the rewards and punishments catch up to you naturally by Karma or when you die the metaphysical being does it.
But then of course you always have authorities manipulating the definitions of what is right and wrong, for their own advantage, and this pisses people off so they hate the word “Religion” in general when it actually means to express the ideal of being kind to each other, even if it is to the point of coercion, but that coercion was only ever meant to be aimed at those who do not see the empathic logic of kindness.

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

So yes, man made, but that is not to say there is no natural truth in it, that there IS some thing natural in kindness and empathy, but it is also not impossible that metaphysics may have some relevance also, and that could mean something devine, that it may be the thing that implanted empathy.@birdie,

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Profile photo of Zykanthos Zykanthos M (@chodebalm) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

@birdie, This has been talked about hundreds of times on here. Gets tiring.

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Profile photo of Mads Mads (@birdie) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

@chodebalm, if its boring, don’t reply.

Thank you everyone for the great comments. You all have very interesting perspectives.

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

I’m in a perfectionist mood, I said Theocracy when I should have said Theology, Theocracy is when you governmentize Theology, this is where you get the “Authorities” manipulating the definitions of morality.

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Profile photo of Zykanthos Zykanthos M (@chodebalm) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

@birdie, It’s not that it’s boring, it’s that it has been talked about many, many times. In fact, because of this, it even asks you if the topic has been posted before…..before you post the topic! Lol

The point of this is to conserve bandwidth and avoid duplicate postings. But alrighty then.

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Profile photo of Mads Mads (@birdie) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

Well in that case I sincerely apologize for asking a boring question..

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Profile photo of  Anonymous (@) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

The time is ripe for an explosion of consciousness. It has never been so ripe, because life is evolving and we are coming to a climax. If we don’t attain to a radical transformation, then this same state of evolved humanity will become a strain on us. Man is no more a child, and he if continues to wear the same clothes which were made for children he is bound to be in difficulty. He will remain unnecessarily crippled for the simple reason that the clothes are small and he has become big. Christianity, Hinduism, Jainism, Mohammedanism, these are all clothes made for another state of humanity when man was more childish. Now they don’t fit, they are utterly out of date. These clothes were right for a certain time. Now they are not right at all. The time is right to change all clothes, the time is ripe to change the whole man. A total overhaul is needed.

Osho

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Profile photo of Zykanthos Zykanthos M (@chodebalm) 2 years, 6 months ago ago
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Profile photo of Mads Mads (@birdie) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

This is amazing. Thank you for your insight.

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Profile photo of Kyle(igh) Kyle(igh) (@kycooley415) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

@nicktett, absolutely!

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Profile photo of ELI var namnet ELI var namnet (@manimal) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

man made of course

if there was such things as heaven and hell all religious people would go to hell, according to the “logic” of their scripture

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Profile photo of 1.61803399 1.61803399 (@drunkmonkmeth) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

obviously man made.

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Profile photo of MichaelO MichaelO (@michaelo) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

First of all, this is my opinion – this is my personal thoughts on the subject.
Now, I personally believe that religion is man-made. Religion is just a result of the human search for the absolute truth behind our existence and behind everything happening around us. While we have no definite proof that a “higher power” exists, we want a way to describe/explain everything, thus we need the existence of “a higher being” – or what some would call God/Allah/whatever – and the product of that need is religion.

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Profile photo of Aizen Aizen (@aizen) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

@flightfacilities has a point, me and my friends were discussing this recently and we came to the conclusion that at one point in are history there was a place for religion. However, in this day and age there is no longer a need for it. I came to the conclusion that only you can find what you truly believe, life is about constently growing and changing your views or staying in the same place its up to you.

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Profile photo of Vivek Hashfire Vivek Hashfire (@vivekhash345) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

@nicktett, you sound like you had that fed to you. Its a dogmatic statement — the whole thing. I hear the same arguements in exactly the same order from other atheists which makes me wonder if there must be some sort of bible for secular atheism. Everything you said sounds like the ravings of a religious fanatic from a religion based on strict science and skepticism.

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Profile photo of Andujar Brutus Andujar Brutus (@brutusa) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

All I can say is absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Being close minded to religion is as bad as any form of ignorance. This site is supposed to be about a “High Existence” as in a “Higher Existence”. I’m not here to argue over life preferences. I have no disdain for religion, it inspires more good works than it does bad and the bad are usually extremist sects of any given religion anyways. Even atheism has extremist members.

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Profile photo of Vivek Hashfire Vivek Hashfire (@vivekhash345) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

@tigerturban, Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Osho die mentally insane?

No offense, but I believe that you can tell a lot about a man’s philosophy by how well it applies when faced with death. Friedrich Nietzsche, Aleister Crowley, and many others were brilliant minds too, but they died in rather unpleasant ways.

Forgive me if that isn’t true — my uncle really digs that guy and told me his whole life story lol

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Profile photo of  Anonymous (@) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

@vivekhash345, Osho became corrupt in the latter part of his life. Despite it all he is one of only two individuals whose entire works have been committed to the Parliament in New Delhi.

you can read witness account of his controversial life here: http://meditation-handbook.50webs.com/osho2.html

“Enlightenment is not something you own; it is something you channel.

Whatever term you use for the phenomena of enlightenment, it is scientifically accurate to say that no human being has any power of their own. Even the chemical energy of our metabolism is borrowed from the sun, which beams light to the earth, which is then converted by plants through photosynthesis into the food we eat. You may get your bread from the supermarket, but the caloric energy it contains originated from thermonuclear reactions deep in the center of a nearby star. Our physical bodies run on star power. Any “spiritual” energy we channel also comes from far beyond, from all sides of the universe, from the complete TES (Time-Energy-Space), from beyond the oceans of galaxies, and onto infinity. No human being owns the Atman, and no one can speak for the TES.

The Void has no ambition or personality whatsoever, so Rajneesh could only speak for his own animal mind. The animal mind may want its disciples to “take over the whole world,” but the Void does not care because it is beyond any motivation. The phenomena we called Rajneesh, Bhagwan, and Osho, was only a temporary lens of cosmic energy, not the full cosmos itself.

Rajneesh, and the famous Greek-Armenian mystic George Gurdjieff, often used the power of the Atman for clearly personal gain. Both men used their cosmic consciousness to overwhelm and seduce women. Gurdjieff was ashamed of his behavior and vowed many times during his life to end this practice, which was a combination of ordinary male lust backed up by the potent advantage of oceanic super-mental power. Rajneesh went even further and used his channeled cosmic energy to manipulate masses of people to gain a kind of quasi-political status, and to aggrandize himself far beyond what was honest or helpful to his disciples. In Oregon, Rajneesh declared to the media that “My religion is the only religion!” Diplomacy and modesty were not his strong points.”

and yet still! “These brilliant insights will benefit all those who yearn for experiential
knowledge of the field of pure potentiality inherent in every human being.
This book belongs on the shelf of every library and in the home of all those
who seek knowledge of the higher self.”
– Deepak Chopra, author of Ageless Body, Timeless Mind; Quantum Healing and
Unconditional Life on Osho’s Book “From Medication to Meditation”

“Enlightened people like Osho are ahead of their times. It is good that more and more young people are now reading his works.”
– K. R. Narayanan, former president of India

“Through my friend Deepak Chopra I came across Osho’s books which gave me an
other deeper shift in my life. I regret I did not met him in person, and I feel sorry the US Government missed such an opportunity back in 86.”
– Madonna, Singer and Performer

We are taught from out very childhood to make a name in the world, to become famous, well-known, successful, a prime minister or a president, a Nobel prize winner – but somebody special, somebody. Every child is poisoned with the idea of being somebody, and the reality is we are all nobodies. And the reality is tremendously beautiful! Just being nobody brings such joy and ecstasy that one cannot even imagine it. Fame brings nothing. It is a very stupid game, very childish and immature.

My definition of real achievement is that which cannot be taken away by death. Anything that can be taken away by death is not a real achievement but only a pseudo achievement, toys to play with.

Become a nobody from this moment and enjoy the freedom that it brings. Become anonymous and see the joy! There is no worry, no anxiety. Because there is no ego you don’t feel hurt. Nothing can hurt you. Somebody can insult you and you can stand there watching and enjoying it because there is nobody inside you to feel hurt, there is nobody to be wounded. You can enjoy and laugh.

The day a man can enjoy and laugh while he is being insulted he has already attained something, he has become part of eternity. He has entered into the world of the immortals.

Osho

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Profile photo of Vivek Hashfire Vivek Hashfire (@vivekhash345) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

@tigerturban, Yes, I see. I hate Nietzsche and everything he stands for, but I can’t help but quote him and admire aspects of his philosophy — even if his philosophy led to a destructive lifestyle which led to syphilis which led to insanity and death.

In a spiritual sense then, Osho was a failure. No cosmic consciousness would work through the animal mind, nor can he be said to have always existed in the void. However, I must admit that his statements are very powerful. I like the one about energy and also the one about pseudo-accomplishments.

A part of the problem is that he may have been trying to be a rebel, to have something new to say, and to shock people. Nietzsche would have called him the Dionysiac madman, the ecstatic reveller. He danced the abyss like many others. Crowley did the same, and he had some very interesting things to say as well. However, when a man is willing to break social norms, it can lead to independence and a strong will, but it can also lead to decadence and a lack of moral fiber. The words of such decadent people, even if they are wise, are like poison dropped in nectar.

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Profile photo of James James (@freethynker7) 2 years, 6 months ago ago

@birdie, its 100 percent fact! God told me.

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Depends on how you define religion.

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