What came first?

3 years, 6 months ago

Matter or consciousness?

September 20, 2011 at 3:47 pm

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Profile photo of Ellie Ellie M (@tangledupinplaid21) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

What do you consider consciousness? Is a dog conscious?

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Profile photo of Damion Damion (@noimadsuperlove) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

I hope dogs are conscious beings… that would be pretty trippy if they were not.

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Profile photo of Ellie Ellie M (@tangledupinplaid21) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

Well, if a dog sees itself in a mirror, does it stop and notice itself? If not, can it be said to be conscious? “Conscious” in the sense of “awake”, yes, but in the sense of self awareness, I’d argue no.

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Profile photo of Johannes Davidsson Johannes Davidsson (@daokedao) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

I would have to agree that a dog isn’t completely self aware. I grew up with dogs. They don’t know that they exist.

And to get back to the original question.

Matter came first.

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Profile photo of Jøshua Jøshua (@tantchula) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

Tao came first…..and last. Its all ways a fucking paradox. lol

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Profile photo of Ka Ka (@kaciula) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

I would add awareness into the equation. How I see it, consciousness is being aware that you are aware. Awareness is getting input from “outside” (find a better definition please). Then I would argue that everything is aware: a dog, even a rock, even a so-called particle etc.

So, one way of looking at it is awareness was before time, then matter came and then consciousness developed in humans. Or it could be completely different :)

As a side note, “They [dogs] don’t know that they exist”. Maybe we falsely assume/know that we exist.

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Profile photo of  Anonymous (@) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

Dogs certainly have feelings, any dog owner will tell you that, but are they conscious? The mirror test is a poor test for non-primates. Dogs use their sense of smell way more than sight. Maybe they can recognize themselves my scent and not by sight. And are we even really conscious, or do we just think we are?

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Profile photo of Matt P Matt P (@mkp843) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

i’ve seen dogs and horses do math before, addition, subtraction, even multiplication.. their instincts are really strong but animals def know a thing or 2..

this question is so hard.. to me it’s like asking ‘who created god’ ..

I initially thought matter but based on my beliefs and after thinking about it i’m leaning towards consciousnesses.. ??

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Profile photo of Jøshua Jøshua (@tantchula) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

Well if they are aware. Then the question is…What are they aware of ?

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Profile photo of ELI var namnet ELI var namnet (@manimal) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

Consciousness. If there was no conciousness, how would matter be matter? If a tree falls when no one can hear it, does it make a sound? Does it even fall? How could it be true if nothing validated it? Etc.

Matter is matter because that’s what it’s percieved as. Where did matter come from if there was nothing before it? Without conciousness, there is nothing.

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Profile photo of Jøshua Jøshua (@tantchula) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

But matter is also the background that creates consciousness. Without it consciousness is nothing. The point i make is that its a paradox. If there is a creator that was first it is Tao…the creation without creation…i will never make be understandable that’s what is understandable.

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Profile photo of ELI var namnet ELI var namnet (@manimal) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

I get your points. But what I’m really saying is this, matter and conciousness are not separate. They are one whole thing. Just look at your self, you have a body (matter) and a mind (conciousness,) these aren’t separate beings. What’s in your mind is in your body, what’s in your body is in your mind.

Conciousness makes the blueprint for matter, just like dna makes the blueprint for a body.

I agree that our current brains aren’t able to understand this, and that the tao is a great teaching. But that’s not all there is to it.

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Profile photo of Jøshua Jøshua (@tantchula) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

Its never all there is :D lol

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Profile photo of Alex Alex (@hollowinfinity) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

CONSCIOUSNESS! I must have said this 1,000,000 times already on this site. haha
Further, I believe where there is matter, there is consciousness.
All matter is conscious, however conscious is more primitive, and came first.

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Profile photo of 1.61803399 1.61803399 (@drunkmonkmeth) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

If I had to answer I’d say both ,but really I don’t know and neither does anyone here.

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Profile photo of Alex Alex (@hollowinfinity) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

@Anon, no one knows anything. Everything is an assumption..It’s nice to talk about though. :)

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Profile photo of Renee Renee C (@themorning) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

Consciousness for sure. Matter comes from consciousness; matter is simply a way for us to make sense of being conscious. All of the matter we see is changeable and completely dependent on consciousness. I believe that if there were no conscious beings, nothing would exist. Why would it? What purpose would any matter have if there was no consciousness to perceive it?

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Profile photo of Johannes Davidsson Johannes Davidsson (@daokedao) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

If you put a cat in a box is it there? Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t there…..

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Profile photo of 1.61803399 1.61803399 (@drunkmonkmeth) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

@Renee… Why does it need a purpose?

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Profile photo of Renee Renee C (@themorning) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

Sure it’s still there, but what if consciousness didn’t exist. Would there be a cat? or a box?

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Profile photo of Renee Renee C (@themorning) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

Mostly because I have a hard time wrapping my mind around matter existing without consciousness. So I suppose it doesn’t need a purpose. If it did exist without consciousness, COULD there even be a purpose? My brain is a pretzel at the moment.

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Profile photo of 1.61803399 1.61803399 (@drunkmonkmeth) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

I personally find it insanely odd that we as humans like to a put a human spin on the cosmos. Such ignorant creatures we are to think that the mystery’s of the cosmos can be answered by examples based on our own behavior, its silly though.

I also thought about that “everything is conscious.” jabber people have been going on about (not just on here) and I figure if everything is conscious then a rock would be conscious.. and atoms would be conscious.. and subatomic particles would be conscious and smaller and smaller. Then I wonder if things so small are suppose conscious.. which atom inside “my” body is “my” consciousness? But apparently every 10 years all the atoms in your body are new so that theory just goes out the window for those who believe in it.

Consciousness is a trait of a thinking, self-aware, intelligent biological being. So unless there we’re biological beings before the point of the big bang we have to say matter definitely came first and that consciousness grew out of matter.

perhaps matter is evolving as well.(notserious)

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Profile photo of  Anonymous (@) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

another question….. Does consciousness necessarily have to be biologically based? In my mind being conscious and being self aware are two different things

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Profile photo of Ray Butler Ray Butler M (@trek79) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

I personally believe in God so I believe consciousness existed first. But even if I did not believe in God I do believe it is possible for energy to achieve consciousness and matter was the result of experimentation by that thinking energy.

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Profile photo of  Anonymous (@) 3 years, 6 months ago ago

@anon, I’m not disagreeing with you, just asking you to widen your perspective beyond our human application of consciousness. Yes human consciousness has distinct traits that we are slowly becoming aware of but is it inconceivable that “thinking” as we know it is limited to our biological means of processing it.

Could consciousness in some abstract-root-form have originated form energy?

Quantum physics implies that atoms are probabilistic wave functions until the point they are observed or measured then the function collapses and at this point we have matter. Once collapsed, does matter return to a wave function if left unobserved? Or does consciousness leave a trail of matter wherever it goes?

sorry for all the questions, but I need brains to pick

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