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Consciousness I believe. Consciousness is primordial. In my mind however all matter is intrinsically conscious in one way or another, but that’s a matter of definition. Hm, perhaps both, as they are so intimately connected. Now I’m not sure haha.
Edit: Ah, I believe I agree with Jarno’s comment on the previous page :]
I personally believe in God so I believe consciousness existed first. But even if I did not believe in God I do believe it is possible for energy to achieve consciousness and matter was the result of experimentation by that thinking energy.
Well, if a dog sees itself in a mirror, does it stop and notice itself? If not, can it be said to be conscious? “Conscious” in the sense of “awake”, yes, but in the sense of self awareness, I’d argue no.
We all know nothing, to think otherwise is to prove the point.
I thought the topic itself made it apparent that any discussion would be on that of possibilities not absolutes.
So back on that track, this is what I’m thinking…. Systems. We are systems built on systems built on systems. Coming from an inertly biological background this is evident; we have our nervous system, digestive system, lymphatic system, etc. Our earth is comprised of ecological systems and our universe of solar systems. Systems of incomprehensible complexity and unknowable interconnectedness in a continuous state of flux. But there are constants, or at least we believe there are, that are setting the parameters of existence. In a universe of possibility these constants allow for the initial formation and maintenance of said systems.
Imagine then… a time before matter. There might be a field of sorts, comprised of energy or energies. Electrical or something completely different; a force. Couldn’t this force/forces evolve systems over an infinite amount of time that achieved complexity similar to that of our physical systems? Wouldn’t it be possible that the force-equivalent of consciousness could arise just like a lot of people claim our human form of consciousness arose by biological means through physical systems? This first consciousness… well this was the first observer. But it would have been less of an observation and more of an awareness; I can’t begin to imagine the senses that this energy-field-consciousness would have. But alas, we have the first collapse of probabilistic energy field into mass, BANG. big bang
I am electrical impulses firing around in my head. A synaptic clusterfuck of energy. Just because brain matter is the conduit of this energy… well why should I assume that it has to be like this, or that it always has been?? I can imagine my brain(matter) as a way to experience this energy, this consciousness. The material form of consciousness would be a shadow per-say; extremely limited relative to an energy consciousness but the trade offs might be the illusion of time, the ability to forget, or simply the chance to learn. I have never believed in a soul, at least I didn’t think I did… but now I don’t know
CONSCIOUSNESS! I must have said this 1,000,000 times already on this site. haha
Further, I believe where there is matter, there is consciousness.
All matter is conscious, however conscious is more primitive, and came first.
Alex; There was no sense of nothingness, it was not until I was in that time and space that I realised it was nothingness. It was the lack of time and space and thought and once that was gone I only feared going back to it. I only had an impression of the nothingness.
So how did I know I was in time and space though it was pitch dark, because I was existing whereas in the nothingness I was not.
@anon, I’m not disagreeing with you, just asking you to widen your perspective beyond our human application of consciousness. Yes human consciousness has distinct traits that we are slowly becoming aware of but is it inconceivable that “thinking” as we know it is limited to our biological means of processing it.
Could consciousness in some abstract-root-form have originated form energy?
Quantum physics implies that atoms are probabilistic wave functions until the point they are observed or measured then the function collapses and at this point we have matter. Once collapsed, does matter return to a wave function if left unobserved? Or does consciousness leave a trail of matter wherever it goes?
sorry for all the questions, but I need brains to pick
I don’t want to get too involved until I know your definition of ‘consciousness.’ Otherwise, we may waste our time arguing different things.
You asked, “How do you know the tree falls or makes a noise?” I’ll refrain from arguing that a ‘noise’ is made; but, unless we ignore physics, we know that compression waves are a result of an impact between matter (if a medium exists to travel through). Are you debating that the compression waves do not exist, or just that our subjective interpretation is unreliable? I understand that “logic based on misunderstanding” is a realistic possibility, but faulty logic rarely yields consistent results… and every tree that has ever fallen has led humans to interpret the causal reaction as noise. Sure, our interpretation may be wrong, it may be an assumption, but the neural association is based on a 100% consistency rate. We ‘hear’ the tree fall every time. You asked, ‘what if that logic was based on a misunderstanding or an incorrect perspective?” what reason do you have to believe it’s not?
You claimed that, “Science shows that electricity is the essence of everything, so your argument isn’t solid from a scientific perspective.” That was in response to me writing, “At an infinitesimal level of explanation, electricity is the essence of consciousness.” You changed ‘consciousness’ to ‘everything’ and then claimed your statement to be scientifically grounded?
As for the rest of your comments, I would like to know your definition of ‘consciousness’ before responding… I’ll leave you with my explanation: I think of consciousness as mental awareness in the brain, even of the brain itself. On a micro level I believe that neurons operate electro-chemically and with no external influence except for a constant source of fuel/vitamins (via food intake). Through the brain’s network of axons and neurons, a complex neural highway is formed which creates the illusion of holism. Like a pointillism painting, the brain creates shortcuts via association so as to make sense, and store, massive amounts of information… I think consciousness is similar to a pointillism image—both made up of billions of logical dots that, when combined, form an image. So, in summary, I think consciousness is a result of neural association and thus requires a biological brain for its construction.
I have never heard of a scientist saying he proved the existence of energy beings. That is because the technology currently does not exist to prove that. Imagination is a gift we can choose to see, because it is not physically real do we reject it? Do we destroy art because, other than it’s aesthetics and expression, there is no real point to it?
Should a fantasy be wiped out of our minds because it is not science?
Seeing for yourself does not make it fact. It is only when we can all see it through scientific process that it becomes fact.