I don’t like this discussion. Normally I wouldn’t post in a discussion i didn’t like. Still this time I thought I should.
First thing i’d like to say is that when we are talking about emotions there are no contradictions. All of us are just trying to explain how we feel, and we are trying to explain which feelings we like a lot, and which feelings we don’t like so much. We do this by using language. Language is governed by logic, and this is what leads to all the confusion going on here. Emotions are not logical. Some of us use happiness to describe how we feel and some of us use joy to describe maybe the same feeling, that doesn’t make one right and the other wrong. This is just an example, but what I’m saying is that we are only doing our best to express what’s going on inside, and when we choose words to do so people get confused and use logic to correct us, but when a painter expresses his/her emotions no one says: "hey your contradicting yourself" or "your wrong" and that’s exactly what’s going on here.
@stonedragon, loved your post
@blair, people do what they want, and happiness is their first priority, they just achieve it in a different way.
@manimal, just because people practice happiness in different way doesn’t make it a shitty way. But we are all entitled to our own opinion.
Money and possessions is what makes them happy, dude. They are practicing happiness, but they’re practicing it in a shitty way.
But I don’t really see the point in practicing happiness. Happy is just a feeling like the others, it’s not in any way better than them. It’s kind of like with sugar, people seem to think that sugar makes everything tasty and that it should be put on everything. You can see the results of that, and it’s the same with happiness. This unhappiness is the result of people looking for happiness. It’s just a fleeting feeling, it doesn’t matter that much.
What does matter is deep joy. But you can have deep joy while feeling sad or angry, because those latter feelings are just thought forms while deep joy is pure emotion.
But greed and hatred has poisoned the deep joy in men. I don’t know. You never know what you’ve got until it’s gone, I’ve been deeply depressed for 3… maybe 4 years now and the random moments of true happiness are what make my life bearable. Happiness and joy are synonymous, and they are both much better than any other emotion in my opinion.
Happiness, just like sugar and alcohol -and just about everything people build their lives on- is a crutch, man. It’s great for when you’re weak, but you gotta learn to walk without it again or your life is gonna suck. And you don’t learn to live without the crutch by constantly leaning on it more or constantly telling how much you need it or how great it is.
Happiness and joy are not synonyms, that’s just a confusion caused by media word magic. Happiness is ego reaction to something desired coming your way, joy is straight from the core within. Happiness is dependent on stimulation or outcome, joy isn’t caused by anything external.
When you stop seeking happiness, more happiness comes your way. This is one of those “paradoxes” that confuse people who don’t want to learn. The striving for happiness is the cause of unhappiness, because it’s rooted in a scarcity mindset, a get by-attitude, a negative worldview. It’s an addiction. You’re not enjoying the happiness itself, you’re simply enjoying the fact that you’re feeling happy. You’ve lost contact with your core, of course that’ll make you depressed. See what I’m getting at?
It’s all mind made, man. Happiness is mind made. It’s a fleeting form of thought, don’t attach. Follow the words of the Buddha, Christ, and so many other wise men. Don’t attach to bullshit, just enjoy life. You will be happy almost all the time, and yet you won’t need that happiness to feel good.
again im following your mindstream mr manimal.
you are rite about this
it is attaching on to hope and fear.
if you are busy hoping and hoping it just becomes fear.
and that becomes pain and not happiness.
so we indeed
need to perhaps
just let go and just
follow your bliss..
tonite we found a green salamander with an orange stripe in our bathroom
we put him outside in the leafs in our garden by the pond.
life is so strange sometimes.
I think logic should be peoples first priority. I find that being logical while emotional will bring progression but being emotional while in logical mindset will make you go adrift.
because its not simple to live here for free, and because 99% of people weren’t raised that way. I get it that there are ways out, but not a lot of people get the foundation for searching for them or a glimpse of what can be different. Unhappy people are profitable. People are conditioned that way and it takes something to get one to notice it. That something doesn’t happen to everyone at some set age or event, really, if it even happens to everyone. Hardly anything urges a person to look within, besides perhaps some teachings or good parents.
@anon but happiness lets you start off more humbly and grow well from there, rather than have to worry about the lifestyle you choose (like allowing yourself to have certain bills to pay in the first place) that doesn’t work for you and being miserable.
Hmm I always thought I was happy to my core, but I guess I’m just joyous to my core? Not that the words really matter, its how I feel that matters.
I’m trying to understand what you’re saying Manimal, but I’m not sure if I’m getting it right. I am completely joyous on the inside, and have been my entire life, but a lot of times I will feel mad/annoyed/stressed/happy/ecstatic for just fleeting moments. Then when those moments end I go back to being just content and joyous. Is that what you’re talking about?
I know a lot of people who are joyful in life. My best friends all are. Maybe thats why we’re friends, like attracts like. My parents are like that too. They’ve had shit in their lives, and they definitely get angry and moody at times, but in the end they are just thrilled to be alive. Maybe thats where I got it from, I was raised to be that way.
I think everyone WANTS complete happiness/joy. But as you can see from yourself Blair, its not always that easy. Maybe they have tried and eventually just gave up. I dunno, I’m not a good person to talk about it because I have zero experience in that department.
@manimal I really liked your post! I think having that inner joy is what we all should be striving for. That is why so many people involve themselves with religion, you can get a peace and joy that sticks around during the hard times. However, I believe religion is just another crutch.
I had a moment a couple of months ago when I was going through some hard stuff, but for whatever reason, I realized that these hard things were going to make me a stronger, wiser person. At that moment I felt incredible sorrow, but a peacefulness about my pain. I think the joy you are talking about really has to come from yourself, no outside forces can give you that, not even religion.
@Manimal tho i completely agree with your second post i do not agree with the first. Yes happiness is a feeling, but it is not just like any other.I feel that you have to be joyful to the core, but happiness and joyful to the core is much better then being joyful and sad(in my opinion). You also contradict yourself in your second post by saying if you are joyful to the core you are happy more often, that means you do care whether you are happy or not.
@Lauren you contradicted yourself when you said “I realized that these hard things were going to make me a stronger, wiser person.” and then said “I think the joy you are talking about really has to come from yourself, no outside forces can give you that, not even religion.” you felt peacefulness because you believed that it would make you stronger. People who follow religion believe that god makes them stronger and are therefor at peace too.
And finally, @Blair i believe we do not all practice happiness at the moment because we are trying to make sure that we can achieve happiness for a longer period in the future. Many people feel happy in a different and new place, which is why they want to travel and traveling costs money. others are happy eating good food and riding in nice cars and wearing nice clothes trying to fit in, it all costs money. But you can be perfectly joyful trying to make that money by studying something you like and viewing it as more of a hobby, that certainly keeps me happy.
Manimal put it really well. Happiness has a beginning and an end and is always conditioned by something external. Joy is unconditioned and is awesome. The question is how does joy arise in oneself? If we’re now starting to run after joy, we will never find it. Tricky tricky.
@Lizzie Not really what I meant. What I’m talking about is feeling that deep joy behind every feeling, meaning you’re never sad or angry. You may feel a little angry or sad at times but you still feel great at the same time, you’re detached from your ego feelings.
@Lauren Glad you liked it. Indeed, nothing external can ever give you the joy of being. It always comes from within, happiness is just our thoughts trying to mimick that state in order to cover up the ego’s flaws. And I really like the way you described that hard time, that peaceful deep state that’s stronger than the fleeting feelings.
@Edann NO, you made that up. What was I contradicting? When you’re truly joyful, happiness comes to you easily, you become happy most of the time but you do not attach to it. As for Lauren’s “contradiction” you really should think about cause and effect for a while and you will realize that she didn’t contradict herself.
@Ka How do you run after something that is runnning after you? Something that is part of you? It sure is impossible, from most people’s point of view. Because they believe in chasing it…
@jake arends Different words describe different things. Having two words for the same thing is weird. Technically, words are just noises we make and have no meaning, but this is an online discussion using nothing but the written word. You can’t convey feelings, you have to use logical pointers.
And people DO say those things about art, which you claim they do not.
And I didn’t ever say one way is worse just because it’s different. There are many different good ways. But a way that doesn’t make you happy, and that makes you addicted to it, is obviously a bad way. Don’t complicate things that are super simple, you’re just fooling yourself.
“but you gotta learn to walk without it again or your life is gonna suck”- Manimal
This is a great description of the happiness/joy thing. Happiness will ALWAYS be fleeting. We simply cannot experience happiness without sadness, it is the human condition. To realize this, and to fully accept it with strength and peace is Joy.
Also sometimes, people can become habituated to feelings of sorrow and misery. They cannot bring themselves out of it, it is a plague of their minds– an addiction like greed or power.
@ manimal, I’m not complicating things, on the contrary, I am trying to simplify things. When you use a word you know what you mean by it, but others don’t necessiraly know. When we talk about “the outside world” it is much easier to make sure that the same word is always used to describe a certain thing. But When we are discussing about what happens inside it becomes a lot harder. You cannot know what exactly someone is saying when they mention that they are truly happy, maybe they are talking about your deep joy or maybe about the fleeting happiness. And i know we are only using words here but that doesn’t mean we should judge using pure logic. Poetry is also written with words, that doesn’t mean it’s logical. It would be very weird to say a poet or artist contradicts himself with their art, I didn’t want to say that it didn’t happen,weirder things happen, but just that it didn’t seem right. People should do their best to try and understand each other more, when it comes to emotions, and not be so quick to judge or say, that they are wrong. That’s all I wanted to add to this discussion.
@jake Aah, but then you are complicating things. Especially the part where you said “we should try to understand eachother more.” What more is there to understand? We are all the same on the inside, if you understand yourself you understand other people. That’s the whole truth, and as always the whole truth is retardedly simple. This whole TRYING to understand eachother is what causes the lack of understanding. Magnifying meaningless differences in the various contents of the ego gives the illusion of people being different inside, but it isn’t real. The contents of a bottle are not the bottle, and they can be poured out or replaced but the bottle remains the same.
If I come across as judging I guess I’m typing with my ass, because I do not judge.
The thing is Manimal, we express ourselves differently and we should keep that in mind when we are discussing our feelings. It’s that simple. It doesn’t matter if you believe that all of us are the same inside or not.
Most of the time you don’t come across like judging, atleast not to me.
The thing is Manimal, we express ourselves differently and we should keep that in mind when we are discussing our feelings. It’s that simple.
It doesn’t matter if you believe that all of us are the same inside or not.
Most of the time you don’t come across like judging, atleast not to me.
I see a lot of misconception happening in this thread. I think using the word ‘joy’ to begin with was a mistake. There is no word for it, it is the base-line feeling of your being that is felt through acting in accordance to your desires, which derive from your subconscious mind. What I speak of is not emotion; emotion is a chemical brain-state – this is not. This feeling is simply the product of linearly acting upon (the path) the non-linear essence of your being (destiny). It is success as an organism. It is fulfillment. Two halves working as a whole – Symmetry/Balance/Efficiency.
You can see how this has nothing to do with happiness and how the word, ‘joy’ is misleading here, as its definition is synonymous with ‘happy’.
If what Manimal summed up in his first two posts about being attached to happiness did not click with you, I advise contemplating it until it does.
@Dan Yeah I guess you’re right. They are not the kind of words I usually speak, but to make it easier to understand I use them here.
But you’re wrong about it not being an emotion, it’s the most emotional of emotions. It’s a true emotion, unlike the thought feelings that most people call emotions and which are really just thoughts that trigger a response from the actual emotion. Emotion is energy in motion, there is a forward motion which feels right and a backwards motion which feels bad. Always. That’s true emotion. Again, media word magic has fucked up the definition of meaningful words and rendered them empty.
But we shouldn’t get attached to the words, they aren’t real. It’s all about the meaning, which is why we invented words in the first place. Nowadays most people just read the words and ignore the meaning. Just like how they attach to fleeting mind feelings and ignore their core emotion.